LTN: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

So the solution to pollution and congestion on the South Circular is to take traffic off A roads and push it back onto residential, speed humped roads? Weird.

[Rockets]

Townleygreen Wrote:

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> Rockets, I think you mean Southbound at the Grove

> Tavern junction, towards F Hill.

You're right...I was never very good at geography...updated now!

[Rockets]

Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote:

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> So the solution to pollution and congestion on the

> South Circular is to take traffic off A roads and

> push it back onto residential, speed humped roads?

> Weird.

No the solution was to not create a problem by closing the DV junction in the first place. If they hadn't have done that traffic would not be queuing southbound from the library to the Grove Tavern. It's really not that difficult to comprehend what is happening since the closures went in. Maybe it will be temporary, as the council suggests and cars will evaporate. But what if it isn't - it is making pollution worse so completely negates the point of the closures.

Lordship Lane this afternoon was awful, I actually thought there might have been an accident - I have never seen it that bad along the main shopping part of the Lane before and the pollution must have been higher than normal.

[Dulwichgirl82]

Agree re lordship lane today, it actually makes me concerned about its viability as if it stays like this its likely to drive customers away. It definitely puts me off spending time there. East dulwich road was also very busy next to the park and playground.

Rockets Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > So the solution to pollution and congestion on

> the

> > South Circular is to take traffic off A roads

> and

> > push it back onto residential, speed humped

> roads?

> > Weird.

>

> No the solution was to not create a problem by

> closing the DV junction in the first place. If

> they hadn't have done that traffic would not be

> queuing southbound from the library to the Grove

> Tavern. It's really not that difficult to

> comprehend what is happening since the closures

> went in. Maybe it will be temporary, as the

> council suggests and cars will evaporate. But what

> if it isn't - it is making pollution worse so

> completely negates the point of the closures.

>

> Lordship Lane this afternoon was awful, I actually

> thought there might have been an accident - I have

> never seen it that bad along the main shopping

> part of the Lane before and the pollution must

> have been higher than normal.

[Spartacus]

Wil72 Wrote:

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> Has anyone set up a petition yet? I can see that

> residents in Wandsworth have done one for the same

> reason on Change.org

On tonight's London news they reported that there are demonstrations in various London boroughs today and that yesterday Wandsworth did a U turn on the LTNs and is now removing barriers.

Hopefully the Souhwark based petition will have the same effect and the council will do a proper consultation exercise that listens to what people actually want and not a few vocal locals !

Edited to add link to story https://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/news/september-2020/low-traffic-neighbourhood-trials-suspended/

[tiddles]

The congestion is basically caused but a lot of traffic having to do two sides of a triangle rather than straight up the obvious route. Also the lights have not been adjusted - for example at the dulwich village / east dulwich grove junction only 2-3 cars can turn right - and a lot of the jam in the village is cars wanting to turn right. If a filter were introduced that could smooth things?

[first mate]

Good point but I am not convinced smoothing things is the aim.

[Earl Aelfheah]

tiddles Wrote:

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> The congestion is basically caused but a lot of

> traffic having to do two sides of a triangle

> rather than straight up the obvious route. Also

> the lights have not been adjusted - for example at

> the dulwich village / east dulwich grove junction

> only 2-3 cars can turn right - and a lot of the

> jam in the village is cars wanting to turn right.

> If a filter were introduced that could smooth

> things?

The lights there definitely need rephasing.

[JohnL]

An alternative is allowing only 50% of cars out on every other day - they did this in Athens years ago I think they call it Road Rationing.

It moves away from "nudge unit" politics into banning people from taking out cars on certain days however.

[JohnL]

Spartacus Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Wil72 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Has anyone set up a petition yet? I can see

> that

> > residents in Wandsworth have done one for the

> same

> > reason on Change.org

>

>

> On tonight's London news they reported that there

> are demonstrations in various London boroughs

> today and that yesterday Wandsworth did a U turn

> on the LTNs and is now removing barriers.

>

> Hopefully the Souhwark based petition will have

> the same effect and the council will do a proper

> consultation exercise that listens to what people

> actually want and not a few vocal locals !

>

>

> Edited to add link to story

> https://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/news/september-2020/

> low-traffic-neighbourhood-trials-suspended/

They haven't given up - they're coming out with alternatives

traffic must be reduced and that's a fact of life - it's just how to do it fairly.

[Metallic]

rahrahrah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> tiddles Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > The congestion is basically caused but a lot of

> > traffic having to do two sides of a triangle

> > rather than straight up the obvious route. Also

> > the lights have not been adjusted - for example

> at

> > the dulwich village / east dulwich grove

> junction

> > only 2-3 cars can turn right - and a lot of the

> > jam in the village is cars wanting to turn

> right.

> > If a filter were introduced that could smooth

> > things?

>

> The lights there definitely need rephasing.

Apparently I heard from about third passer on that the TfL box for EDG cannot simply be altered, or filtered, a new box I guess is required.

[dulwichquine]

Is there a petition underway to oppose the changes through Dulwich Village/Calton Avenue? If so, can anyone post a link?

[Abe_froeman]

The council would have known they would not be able to impske any changes on the junction of EDG that affect the timing for buses heading south then west.

It's the same stumbling block James Barber described on here when people asked why the junction at the other end of EDG could not be made safer for pedestrians

[ab29]

dulwichquine Wrote:

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> Is there a petition underway to oppose the changes

> through Dulwich Village/Calton Avenue? If so, can

> anyone post a link?

Petition: https://www.change.org/p/helen-hayes-help-us-not-to-get-road-closure-in-east-dulwich?utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=custom_url&recruited_by_id=b9ef0770-e198-11ea-a32a-a7c05e9e4c3f

[alice]

Ab that?s just for Melbourne rd area.

[Artemis]

https://eastdulwichstreetspace.commonplace.is/

And

https://dulwichvillagestreetspace.commonplace.is/

These both allow comments about the changes.

[Rockets]

JohnL Wrote:

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> An alternative is allowing only 50% of cars out on

> every other day - they did this in Athens years

> ago I think they call it Road Rationing.

>

> It moves away from "nudge unit" politics into

> banning people from taking out cars on certain

> days however.

Was it not the case that in Athens they had odd-number and even-number alternating number plate days to try to combat the pollution and a lot of Athenians just went out a bought a second car to ensure they could alternate and avoid the ban?

Wandsworth seem to be piling part of the blame for removing their LTNs on TFL and the measures they are implementing...this becomes more and more political and I do wonder whether all Tory councils will remove them.

[dulwichfolk]

With regards the light rephasing/filtering maybe tfl are waiting for Southwark council to decide what changes they want.

If they changed them now and then the northbound traffic is blocked due to bus gates this would negate the whole process

Maybe changing the lights here will worsen things in Herne Hill or at the townley road junction...

Tfl planners may actually consider consequences of their actions unlike others

[Spartacus]

Rockets : I don't think it's because Wandsworth is slightly majority Tory

They had pressure from their voters and as tfl are making other changes they decide to retreat and review

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

I don't know why people are interpreting changes and cancellations to individual measures as a retreat. The changes are experimental and temporary - it's inevitable and desirable that some of them are going to get binned or altered.

[Rockets]

It is a retreat because they are not working and creating more problems than they are solving and politicians want to distance themselves from the problems they are causing. At the moment they are impacting far more people than they are benefiting and as people see gridlocked streets caused by displacement they are challenging whether the plans are going to actually make things worse.

The far bigger worry remains that such a poorly executed attempt to make change will impact the longer-term viability of properly addressing the issues as no politician will want to go near it.

[Abe_froeman]

The heavily antagonistic approach to these changes by certain factions and lobby groups won't help with that either Rockets.

They've not really made any effort at all to win hearts and minds on this.

[exdulwicher]

It is a retreat because they are not working and creating more problems than they are solving and politicians want to distance themselves from the problems they are causing.

It's a retreat for the second reason. There wasn't anywhere near enough time to ascertain effectiveness - it's been said before on here and other threads that it takes about 6 months for everything to settle down and this is known about with most road schemes, alterations etc.

The council spent no time on framing the issues, engaging with residents, communicating the changes, highlighting the positives and there was no commitment to supporting complementary innovations like Walking Buses (for kids to get to school) or bike share schemes or permitting pop-up businesses in any of the closed areas.

They've squandered money (ironically given to a Tory Council by a Tory Government at the specific behest of Government policy, they've lost whatever goodwill they may have had and they've made it far harder for themselves in trying to change things in future.

Honestly, spineless local Government is the major stumbling block in all of these schemes and plans. It's why things get watered down to be beyond useless as consultation after consultation is ambushed by vocal NIMBYs and the councillors immediately fall over themselves to appease rather than explain. And far from being democracy, it's simply a case of shouting loudest.

The far bigger worry remains that such a poorly executed attempt to make change will impact the longer-term viability of properly addressing the issues as no politician will want to go near it.

Exactly this @Rockets, the council have just blown any possible chances of progression. The anti-LTN side see it as a victory for shouting loudly and protesting, the pro-LTN side haven't had a chance to see any benefits of the scheme, the council have no modelling data worth a damn because it wasn't left in place long enough and the residents (and all the through traffic) see it as carte blanche to just drive anywhere, anytime. What a failure.

[Abe_froeman]

Lol. The shoe is on the other foot now...

[Earl Aelfheah]

Wandsworth have knee jerked at the inevitable push back from a long indulged and entitled minority being asked to share a bit more space with others. Interestingly though, the traffic jams caused by increases in people cycling and driving coming out of the lockdown (and as a result of people avoiding public transport in the face of COVID), have not eased. It will be interesting to see what people put congestion down to now that all the planters have been removed AND the alternatives to using a car in areas like Tooting, are to become less appealing once more.