LTN: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3

[dulwichfolk]

Are the businesses breaking down the uplift in takings by day/weekend or is it a total including all days?

Some could be due to having more places(seats on the road). Which sort of defeats the purpose this was put into which was to promote active travel and help with social distancing.

The reduction in cars has been happening year on year in dulwich it is just the council fudged one years record when roadworks were on.

[rachp]

Honestly, I don't know. I just know the business owners voted to keep the changes because they felt it benefitted them commercially. I don't think it's a complete stretch to believe that people would rather sit on a pavement that is next to a road without traffic roaring by. Presumably if there are more seats on the pavement, the road being traffic free compensates for this in terms of creating space. If you want to discredit this example, I'm sure you can. I just thought it was quite uplifting to learn that sometimes, these initiatives can have a positive impact for residents and those who want to visit.

[Abe_froeman]

You can't seriously be comparing Melbourne Grove with Northcote Rd?

[dulwichfolk]

It isn?t personally at you but the supporter/councillors will throw out figures all over place trying to justify the changes and then they are repeated as facts. Just need to dig a little and it falls apart.

Is it uplifting? The extra noise/waste/road being taken over and lack of social distancing? If someone allowed me to increase my restaurant space by 50% of course I?m going to be in favour of it.

[Tom McCrae]

I believe this is the start of pushing all traffic onto main roads so they can be caught in camera for the new ULEZ coming in to force.

This way they only need to position cameras on the main junction as they will be no other way to get from A- B as all side roads will be closed one end.

This will also make it harder for emergency vehicles to get around.

Also it will make it easier for the scumbags who rob people and escape on motorbikes to invade being chased by the police

[exdulwicher]

I've had a lovely couple of weeks on holiday.

What have I missed...?

[Rockets]

Ex - depends on who you speak to!!! It's either nirvana or armageddon and nothing in between! ;-)

[Bicknell]

Worry is that the council wont listen to objections. Closures are experimental -but who judges if experiments are success or failrue?

[heartblock]

The only benefit of the standing traffic from LL all the way along EDG today is the cyclists are enjoying scooting past it all by using the opposing lane...until a car or van makes a frustrated u-turn and takes a cyclist out. Witnessed one near-miss during my daily run. Quote from friend who lives near Rosendale ?oh those poor people living on that road, must be hell?.

[redpost]

I can assure you that most cyclists don't enjoy being super wary to avoid being car doored, pedestrians crossing between standing traffic and a van driver doing a u turn and not paying proper attention because they are "frustrated".

[JohnL]

Bicknell Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Worry is that the council wont listen to

> objections. Closures are experimental -but who

> judges if experiments are success or failrue?

It's Statutory Guidance - that would need to change surely

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/reallocating-road-space-in-response-to-covid-19-statutory-guidance-for-local-authorities

(I looked up what Statutory Guidance means as it's contradictory so - https://www.localgovernmentlawyer.co.uk/governance/314-governance-a-risk-articles/16316-when-is-guidance-statutory-and-does-it-matter)

"exceptionally and with good reason, we might deviate slightly from it; but it carries its own legal authority because, almost all the time, we must follow it."

and they sped it up in May - 23 May 2020

Details of amended legislation to speed up making Traffic Orders.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

rupert james Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > mrwb Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > Crime, unemployment and associated economic

> > crisis

> > > what we need to deal with. Car usage will

> > > naturally decline as people leave.

> >

> > What population level will "naturally" take us

> > down to an acceptable level of congestion and

> > pollution in London? How long will that take?

>

>

> The ULZ according to Khan the Magnificent will

> have the potential to take 2.7million off the road

> in 2021.

Citation needed, I think. There were about 2.7 million cars in total in London recently. I doubt the ULEZ is going to result in them all being scrapped

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/environment/air-quality-consultation-phase-3b/user_uploads/ulez-consultation-appendix-j.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjto8OrlNnrAhUyNOwKHctBCC0QFjALegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw1NsMgjH8JtHIBtDV-7eDnI

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

Shaggy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

Does anyone think we should have the right to use

> our cars as much as we like?

>

> Does anyone think that those who can use

> alternative means of transport, such as bikes,

> should?

Loads of people think they should be able to drive wherever they want. No one ever thinks it's their journeys that are the problem - just other people's. "All of this traffic is getting in MY way!"

Even weirder, many of them also object to things that encourage other means of transport, not realising that if other people were not in cars, their own car journey would be easier.

[exdulwicher]

Citation needed, I think. There were about 2.7 million cars in total in London recently. I doubt the ULEZ is going to result in them all being scrapped

Depends how it was measured and what was meant by it (I've not actually seen his comment anywhere, just taking it from that post above). 2.7 million fewer journeys (per a defined timeframe - annually / monthly / weekly?) vs 2.7 million vehicles just disappearing forever; the former being much more likely than the latter!

Congestion Charge, when that was introduced, resulted in an almost immediate (within a month) reduction in traffic of 15% although that's crept up steadily since then with occasional spikes down as the price increased and a drift upwards mostly due to the sheer number of PHVs (predominantly Uber) being registered and an increase in van deliveries, especially to offices.

That's dropped back down again now, replaced by van deliveries to homes since very few people are actually in offices!

[Otto2]

Coming from NYC, where more cars than road space always an issue - even in the outer boroughs that somewhat resemble here - the deterrent to ownership was "alternate side of the street parking". Not all cars could squash onto the other side of the road to park, and, car owners grew tired of waking up early and sitting in their cars with hopes of nabbing a parking space on the other side of the road. You could also pay an extortionate price for a parking garage. The reality is population growth will make car ownership unsustainable and create a very polluted London. Other cities around the world are taking similar measures. We can do it! I've raised two children here and had a car in the beginning as well as bicycles. We swapped to all public transport, cycling and walking over nine years ago when my kids were 7 and 10 (with massive trepidation - it is definitely daunting!) The reality is that cycling can often be the fastest and most pleasurable way. Before you chime in "not all people can cycle" - I can tell you I have an arthritic knee, copd, and severe asthma. I have an electric bike and a regular one - the electric bike allows me to tackle hills that my lungs would never keep pace with. The air quality during the peak of lockdown was such a pleasure - I could breathe much much better for the first time in my life. I visited Soho the other day by bike and it was wonderfully vibrant with the closed off streets especially as the restaurants were able to set up tables outside. Being a New Yorker, I'm always happy to raise my hand for a taxi or call one when needed - there are definitely times! Not having a car saves enough money so you can do that without hesitation. Cars are definitely a necessity for some and for some people some of the time. What we should be lobbying for are segregated cycle lanes so that our children and less confident can feel a sense of freedom and safety! To be honest, the current congestion on Ed Grove/ the village is largely school-related as far as I can see and has always been that way. Our public transport system lacks east/west options as do our cycling routes. If we fix that, it will be a happier, healthier place to live. One thought for school runs that need to go thru these pinch points is setting up a park and cycle. If we had a place where mums and dads who had a school run longer than feasible by foot or a bike could park somewhere and hop on some bikes for the rest of the trip - that would be great!

[Metallic]

I have just heard from a friend who lives round the corner from me in Area B. She had paramedics this morning as she has heart problems and lives alone. The paramedics took her to hospital and on the way told her that their bosses have asked them to log any calls to streets with planters or other blockages, so that they can report the delays to local councils.

Only one person has to die for this rubbish new road system to be deemed, by me and people like me and hopefully a Coroner, the additional cause of death occurring through delays.

[rachp]

Amen!! My 76 year old father with a hip replacement to name but a few ailments cycles daily. There will always be people who need a car, and that's many of us in some situations. And there are lots of reasons why the way that this has been implemented is wrong. But to paint the picture that the enemy of clean air is the closures when in fact it is the over depedence on cars by too many people, too much of the time seems to focus overly on symptoms, not root causes.

Otto2 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Coming from NYC, where more cars than road space

> always an issue - even in the outer boroughs that

> somewhat resemble here - the deterrent to

> ownership was "alternate side of the street

> parking". Not all cars could squash onto the other

> side of the road to park, and, car owners grew

> tired of waking up early and sitting in their cars

> with hopes of nabbing a parking space on the other

> side of the road. You could also pay an

> extortionate price for a parking garage. The

> reality is population growth will make car

> ownership unsustainable and create a very polluted

> London. Other cities around the world are taking

> similar measures. We can do it! I've raised two

> children here and had a car in the beginning as

> well as bicycles. We swapped to all public

> transport, cycling and walking over nine years ago

> when my kids were 7 and 10 (with massive

> trepidation - it is definitely daunting!) The

> reality is that cycling can often be the fastest

> and most pleasurable way. Before you chime in "not

> all people can cycle" - I can tell you I have an

> arthritic knee, copd, and severe asthma. I have an

> electric bike and a regular one - the electric

> bike allows me to tackle hills that my lungs would

> never keep pace with. The air quality during the

> peak of lockdown was such a pleasure - I could

> breathe much much better for the first time in my

> life. I visited Soho the other day by bike and it

> was wonderfully vibrant with the closed off

> streets especially as the restaurants were able to

> set up tables outside. Being a New Yorker, I'm

> always happy to raise my hand for a taxi or call

> one when needed - there are definitely times! Not

> having a car saves enough money so you can do that

> without hesitation. Cars are definitely a

> necessity for some and for some people some of the

> time. What we should be lobbying for are

> segregated cycle lanes so that our children and

> less confident can feel a sense of freedom and

> safety! To be honest, the current congestion on Ed

> Grove/ the village is largely school-related as

> far as I can see and has always been that way. Our

> public transport system lacks east/west options as

> do our cycling routes. If we fix that, it will be

> a happier, healthier place to live. One thought

> for school runs that need to go thru these pinch

> points is setting up a park and cycle. If we had a

> place where mums and dads who had a school run

> longer than feasible by foot or a bike could park

> somewhere and hop on some bikes for the rest of

> the trip - that would be great!

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

"To be honest, the current congestion on Ed

> Grove/ the village is largely school-related as

> far as I can see and has always been that way."

I agree with most of what you say, but this simply isn't correct. Congestion gets worse at school times, but in those locations, there is congestion in the school holidays and congestion for much, much longer than just the period around pickup and dropoff. "Rush hour" in the afternoon is basically 2.30 to 7.30pm. We have oodles of traffic data to show this. In more Central London, there basically isn't a rush hour any more - it's just constant congestion.

The reality is that there needs to be a dramatic reduction in car, minicab and delivery van use. We are all part of the problem, and there is no solution that does not involve some short term inconvenience and adjustment. TINA. The complaints about short term displaced traffic from one or two minor changes show how widespread and systematic these changes need to be.

[sally buying]

exdulwicher Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Citation needed, I think. There were about 2.7

> million cars in total in London recently. I doubt

> the ULEZ is going to result in them all being

> scrapped

>

> Depends how it was measured and what was meant by

> it (I've not actually seen his comment anywhere,

> just taking it from that post above). 2.7 million

> fewer journeys (per a defined timeframe - annually

> / monthly / weekly?) vs 2.7 million vehicles just

> disappearing forever; the former being much more

> likely than the latter!

>

> Congestion Charge, when that was introduced,

> resulted in an almost immediate (within a month)

> reduction in traffic of 15% although that's crept

> up steadily since then with occasional spikes down

> as the price increased and a drift upwards mostly

> due to the sheer number of PHVs (predominantly

> Uber) being registered and an increase in van

> deliveries, especially to offices.

>

> That's dropped back down again now, replaced by

> van deliveries to homes since very few people are

> actually in offices!

I seem to recall that I have read that figure somewhere. What I recall is that was the number of registered vehicles that are in the area bordered by the north and south circular roads that will be non compliant, not just London, because of being diesel/ petro/ old when the ULEZ comes into effect in Oct 2021 and will have to be replaced or scrapped.

One effect it was said that many people will be unable to replace their cars because they cannot afford to i.e OAP's and the lower paid. Hence why there will be a great reduction.

Also the ?12.50 a day to move from a to b with all the other charges now in force was not tenable.

Just how many cars in total are registered in the North/South area. It must be possible to produce these figures

[FairTgirl]

I would like to reiterate the below for those of you who believe in democracy and agree that people should be consulted on these matters first.

Please sign our online petition, and email your local councillors to express your views. You can also express your views on the specific road closures via an app I have copied in below.

Please show us your support if you can. There are peoples livelihoods and health at stake.

Please Follow us on twitter @GroveReopen and please retweet our tweets to any local journalists

Petition

[chng.it] to sign the petition.

You can also voice your views here

Streetspace East Dulwich : [eastdulwichstreetspace.commonplace.is]

Email your councillors below;

[email protected]

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and

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[email protected]

[Earl Aelfheah]

Rockets Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Ex - depends on who you speak to!!! It's either

> nirvana or armageddon and nothing in between! ;-)

It?s neither. There has been some displacement of traffic and a few Rush hour hotspots that need to be mitigated. But neither is there the carmaggedon that some are claiming. I do think people are forgetting what things were like pre- lockdown too. It was not uncommon for there to be significant congestion running up to the south circular for example. It?s all got to be set against the benefits / improvements in certain areas too.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Out of interest, where do people think the traffic on east dulwich Grove x lordship lane would go if Calton Avenue was reopened?surely it would still end up on EDG or LL?

[Earl Aelfheah]

Just a reminder of how bad EDG was before

[Otto2]

Thanks for posting that rahrahrah. I live very nearby and yes - this was not unusual.

[Roky Erickson]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8713579/Fury-FIRE-ENGINE-gets-stuck-new-cycle-lane-Covid-friendly-traffic-measures.html