LTN: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3

[Artemis]

https://www.southwark.gov.uk/parking/disabled-parking/parking-with-a-blue-badge?chapter=2

Hi @spider69 - you need to follow the process in this link - hope that helps.

[goldilocks]

Not quite true to say 'no one can work it out' - I've given you an explanation, you just don't believe it to be true. That's very different from 'no one can work it out'. I assume that this means though that once the council provide the information on the actual counts from January / September, you'll be able to understand that traffic has fallen in the central section of EDG.

Rockets Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > redpost Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > Why don't you do something positive and

> submit

> > an

> > > FOI request instead of endlessly complaining

> on

> > > this forum?

> >

> > There is no need to do that - the raw data and

> > detail on the methodology and analysis is all

> > freely available on the council website

> already!

> > This whole "we need more data" talking point is

> a

> > load of old tut.

> >

> https://www.southwark.gov.uk/transport-and-roads/i

>

> >

> mproving-our-streets/live-projects/dulwich-review?

>

> > chapter=4

>

> But it's not is it....look just three or messages

> earlier there's a debate going on between myself

> and Goldilocks as we try to unravel what has been

> done with the EDG Central numbers - no-one can

> work it out.

>

> Given you are so enlightened by the info shared by

> the council perhaps you can tell us how the

> council has gathered the EDG Central data?

>

> ........nope didn't think so, this is why the

> council, none other than the council leader,

> promised to share the raw data and methodology

> because without it you can't make sense on how

> they arrived at their numbers. Nothing has been

> shared.

>

> It seems the only people happy with the level of

> detail shared are those whose agendas are

> validated by them.

>

> "Hurrah, victory is ours - who cares where the

> numbers came from or whether they are accurate."

[Rockets]

Yup, that's your explanation but even you say it is your "understanding" so you're not sure either.

Maybe Cllr McAsh can put this to bed once and for all by answering a few questions:

1) Where is the Jan 19 data from (for what purposes was it collected and from which point was it collected as it is not the same location as the Sept 21 monitoring point)?

2) What methodology was used to arrive at the Sept 21 figure?

3) Why does the EDG Central chart say: the Pre-implementation data for Jan 2019 has been adjusted to September 2019 levels to ensure compatibility and what adjustment took place and why?

4) Why was the decision taken to add the EDG Central monitoring point in Sept 21?

[malumbu]

redpost Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> Why don't you do something positive and submit an FOI request instead of endlessly complaining on this forum?

Actually a good suggestion

Dear Southwark Council, under the FOI regulations will you please supply me all documentation on the following matters:

Southwark Council being corrupt

Southwark Council being incompetent

Southwark Council being in the pockets of those living on the leafy streets and/or in gated communities.

[Rockets]

What a great idea Malumbu....let's us know how you get on.

But wait, as a Lewisham resident it would be a bit pointless you writing to Southwark as you don't actually live in the borough..;-)

[legalalien]

Good luck with FOI requests to Southwark - I?ve only ever made one, the response was late (after six months) after the ICO intervened, response received literally on the afternoon of the day they specified for a response. Someone asked me to look at an FOI response last year and the council had completely misstated the law as part of their justification for withholding info - notwithstanding their legal obligation to (basically) be helpful. It?s a joke. Meanwhile a local councillor accuses lobby groups of lying when they publish responses to FOI requests.

Not sure what to think there.

So, on a practical note, submitting an FOI request is not as helpful or useful as people might hope.

[first mate]

Rockets Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> Maybe Cllr McAsh can put this to bed once and for

> all by answering a few questions:

>

> 1) Where is the Jan 19 data from (for what

> purposes was it collected and from which point was

> it collected as it is not the same location as the

> Sept 21 monitoring point)?

> 2) What methodology was used to arrive at the Sept

> 21 figure?

> 3) Why does the EDG Central chart say: the

> Pre-implementation data for Jan 2019 has been

> adjusted to September 2019 levels to ensure

> compatibility and what adjustment took place and

> why?

> 4) Why was the decision taken to add the EDG

> Central monitoring point in Sept 21?

[legalalien]

Final report

https://moderngov.southwark.gov.uk/ieDecisionDetails.aspx?Id=7524

Apparently it will cost a further ?750k to make the measures permanent. Seems like a lot, presumably the cameras have already been paid for? I guess they need to replace all the signage to reflect the changed hours of operation, and do the mandatory advertising and maybe this figure includes the cost of ongoing monitoring? Plus modifications to allow emergency access through the Calton junction.

[ed_pete]

?750k maybe but isn't the LTN funding part of central governments grant to local authorities, i.e. not funded by council tax ?

Also looks like there is a threat to remove funding if schemes are removed.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1007807/active-travel-schemes-supported-by-government-funding.pdf

[legalalien]

It says it?s being paid out of parking revenue I think.

[Metallic]

legalalien Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It says it?s being paid out of parking revenue I

> think.

And boy is there alot of that!!!

[Poppy2017]

Does anyone know when the times of the restrictions are going to be changed? I thought they said they would change the restrictions to 3-4.30 in the new year?

[spark67]

Would quite like the traffic measured going up and down Ashbourne grove, seems to be the new exit and entry area for people driving that live on Melbourne grove now the EDG entrance is closed... ok for them to drive on others roads but not for anyone to drive on theirs it seems. Also looks like traffic drive up Ashbourne now and along Melbourne to exit further up onto lordship lane opposite the school to avoid traffic further down Lordship lane near the roundabout end

Noticed traffic measuring system on Melbourne, bit not on Ashbourne or Chesterfield etc, which are now being used more as cut thoughts to bypass lordship lanes more congested end.

[ab29]

This is a vicious circle - every closure will cause more traffic on other roads, the more closures the more traffic the remaining roads will have to deal with. I truly despise those b****y LTNs.

[Metallic]

Meanwhile our roads are super quiet and a bit lonely at night.

[ab29]

https://www.southwarknews.co.uk/news/review-of-the-year-battle-lines-drawn-over-divisive-low-traffic-neighbourhood-scheme/?fbclid=IwAR0b5tuIgbf1hwWZAHJfHfYyyS3ZkQL97DEZ42A1jEwhK3TzkZlKBKSJAHQ

[ab29]

No direct trains from Forest Hill to London Bridge till 10th of Jan due to Covid and yet the trains from ED run every 15 min - how can this be?

[malumbu]

I think the cancellation of the Forest Hill trains is due to Southwark Council. They have obviously prioritised the transport requirements of the more affluent (if not necessarily more leafy) East Dulwich.

Anyway on more serious subjects. Great that France has banned plastic wrapping on fruit and veg. My recent visits, in the days when we did visit, they'd gone pretty far down this route and had long since banned carrier bags.

The thing about the French is that they JDI. They do not faff around for ever and a day on long never ending consultations, evidence gathering and the like. They just do it because it is the right thing

A bit like LTNs and other measures to reduce driving. JDI.

[dougiefreeman]

> They just do it because it is the right

> thing

>

> A bit like LTNs and other measures to reduce

> driving.

And there, comrades, is the patronising arrogance of Southwark council and the pro LTN crew summed up in two sentences.

In other words, ?we know best, you?re clearly either too stupid or too selfish to see so we really don?t feel it necessary to listen to you. We have the moral superiority here? blah blah blah..?

My parents live in France and would gladly run you through the major problems that this style of governance causes.

[Rockets]

I think we pretty much have that model here:

- council installs measures it has struggled to get support for on the basis of the need for emergency social distancing caused by Covid

- council engages in tick-box "consultation" process because it has to by law

- "consultation" process demonstrates overwhelming local opposition to the measures in their current form

- council issues highly flawed monitoring data and summary reports that hail the measures as a "success"

- council leader promises to share methodology, timings and raw data used to collate the reports but never does

- council proceeds regardless and makes the decision to make them permanent which we all knew was going to be the outcome the moment they put them in under the ludicrous guise of the need for social distancing

Malumbu - be careful what you wish for. Just because you think these measures are great doesn't mean you should be celebrating the way Southwark have gone about this because next time they might be employing the same under-hand tactics to railroad something through that you don't like......and before you know it the people have zero influence on anything the council wants to do and that is a very dangerous precedent.

Respect for the democratic process should be the no.1 protected priority within all local, regional and national authorities but it seems Southwark likes to bend the rules to their advantage if it suits their political agenda.

[Metallic]

Looking at twitter over the holidays. (I rarely tweet having less followers than I have fingers and toes.) But caught sight of one of the esteemed Labour councillors from Goose Green Ward wearing a "F*** the Tories" Christmas jumper and the tweet was liked by our esteemed (yes again) leader of the Council, Kieron Williams.

These are the people running a demolition derby bicycle through YOUR businesses and YOUR home roads. Does Councillor McCash teach your children? Do you respect these two for their attitude which I'm pretty certain doesn't uphold the Nolan principles which I am happy to share: selflessness, integrity, objectivity, accountability, openness, honesty and leadership.

As for the Councillors in my Ward, they have politically motivated me to hold them to account and again on twitter, I see one of them calling out people as liars without any proof as there probably isn't any in view of the FOI clearly visible on a tweet, and one who has no resilience to being challenged and uses the old verbals. Not in writing of course, that would be stupid even for that person.

Happy New Year everyone, gird yourself ready for a rollercoaster leading up to May 5th.

Yes, I'm proper cross and I'm not going to sit quietly in my LTN and not call people to account. The LTNs are an abomination against the elderly and disabled, against anyone waiting for emergency services, against small businesses trying to carry out their work up against traffic jams caused by displaced traffic, against able bodied but who do not want to cycle having to spend half their day walking to the shops in Lordship Lane, shopping, then dragging their bags back home. I'm sure Southwark will claim traffic is down due to their LTNs, but actually it is down as we are working from home yet again. It wasn't down in September either due to their LTNs, it was down because no one could get petrol. And so on.

I don't believe a word they say, they have no integrity and no objectivity, they have no accountability because there is no opposition, they are not honest and their leadership thinks a "F*** the Tories" Christmas jumper is worthy of a like.

[malumbu]

But Rocks, I expect you will still be going on about this in ten years time when hopefully most have moved on.

Let's give the smoking ban as another example. In England we waited till the summer to soften the blow on those having to smoke outside the pub. But Scotland just said sod it and introduced it in the winter. And so many people said how undemocratic etc etc, show me the evidence etc etc, I'm not going to the pub etc etc. Yet it became quickly the norm and we look back now, smokers and non-smokers and can't believe that people used to smoke in cafes, restaurants and pubs.

Hopefully in years to come we will look back and think, good heavens, were people really that attached to their cars, did they really think they were that entitled?

[Rockets]

Wow - had missed Cllr McAsh's Xmas twitter post: https://twitter.com/mcash/status/1474732079938158600?t=FOR6wsnJTMOsIBiLoc4dKQ&s=19

I suspect if a non-Labour councillor had posted something like this there would be outrage from the likes of Cllr McAsh trying to get them cancelled, contacting their employer to say is this appropriate for a primary school teacher and representative of the council to be posting this.

But it seems if you are a Labour councillor (or for that matter opposition front bench member) you can do what you like, say what you like without any form of recrimination.

[CPR Dave]

He must really be quite stupid if he thinks that is an appropriate image to put out on twitter.

[legalalien]

I think that misses Rocket's point, which has been my biggest concern all along - not the pros and cons of this particular issue - which might well be all forgotten in ten years, but rather the flaws in the local government processes, which unless remedied, have potential to affect all local issues going forward.

There's an interesting campaign going on in Lambeth, for a move away from the current Cabinet system:

https://www.gopetition.com/petitions/make-lambeth-council-work-for-all-voters.html