LTN: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3

[Serena2012]

ExDulwicher and Goldilocks - I?m cognisant that one of the principal aims of this initiative is to cause people to think twice about motor vehicle usage, and that as such, not all journeys that currently take place by car will be replaced like for like. Nevertheless, my understanding is that where similar schemes have been implemented, the impact was that an amount of traffic was displaced, thereby increasing the volume of traffic on the A roads.

With that in mind, it is very disappointing to note that the most northern portion of East Dulwich Grove appears to have been omitted from the consultation in circumstances where it will be directly impacted. Whilst I agree that the residents of certain roads should not have the power of veto, in the same way that those residents of the roads that stand to directly benefit should not be the only voices heard, I am of the view that those living on roads directly impacted should have the right to have our views taken into account and have the ability to influence the proposal particularly where it risks adversely impacting our daily lives. With that in mind, I feel that we should demand that the Council assesses and then considers ways of mitigating the risk that the proposal presents to the roads that will bear the brunt of any increased traffic flow, as well as considering their suitability for this.

Rollflick - You make a good point that the proposal is only one of a number of initiatives designed to improve air quality in the area, and that there is merit in getting the momentum going in this regard. That having been said, as a resident of one of the roads likely to be negatively impacted, I intend to engage fully with the consultation going forward, to ensure that prior to implementation, the likely impact on East Dulwich Grove is fully and properly understood. In particular, I would be very interested to see the modelling of likely impact on traffic flow and volume, as well as understanding whether any improvements to the hazardous junction between East Dulwich Grove and Lordship Lane are considered.

[exdulwicher]

Serena2012 Wrote:

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> In particular, I would be very interested to see the

> modelling of likely impact on traffic flow and

> volume, as well as understanding whether any

> improvements to the hazardous junction between

> East Dulwich Grove and Lordship Lane are

> considered.

I'd love to see that one - the junction is very small, comes almost right onto the roundabout at Goose Green and takes buses. Maybe - just maybe - the hoped-for reduction in traffic along ED Grove means that the LL / EDG junction doesn't actually need any mitigation as it'll be quieter anyway?

[rupert james]

From your forum name are you a resident of East Dulwich and its surrounds?

[Lillypilly]

From what I can see, during the restricted turn hours, there will still be vehicle flow along Townley from LL to the Townley/EDG junction, where the traffic will mostly turn left towards Village Way, rather than right to the LL end of East Dulwich Grove (only permit holders can turn right). Vehicles coming out of Calton Ave (which will be closed at the super busy Court Lane end) are currently the main contributors to this right-turning traffic into East Dulwich Grove, along with traffic that has turned off LL onto Townley already. So there might actually be benefits for the LL end of East Dulwich Grove, as it won?t be receiving this traffic from Calton and Townley. There?s also the question of who the permit holders for full access to and from Townley Road will be - the recent explanatory documents mention access for residents and permit holders (i.e. these are not one and the same thing). I wouldn?t be surprised if the school coaches are granted permits so, again, some concerns for the LL end of EDG might not eventuate as the coaches may use Townley Road still. As others have noted, it is not as straightforward as a problem in one area being pushed into another.

What is clear, however, is that the current situation on Townley Road is dangerous and is getting worse. I walk it with my children at school time every day. The traffic is bumper-to-bumper in the rush hours, the air quality is poor (you can smell the fumes), and there are frequent near-miss accidents between school children and vehicles. It?s not just Alleyn?s and JAGS kids that are affected, it?s children from all the surrounding schools who use this very popular walking route to school - incl DVIS, Dulwich Hamlet, Charter, Herne Hill. There are far too many children being dropped off to school at Alleyn?s and JAGS by car, and far too many rat-runners. The whole Dulwich/ED area is changed for the better in non-term-time. Re. schools stopping students from driving to school, I know from an Alleyn?s parent that the school has tried to do this, but it made no real difference.

[Serena2012]

I?m struggling to see how the proposal could do anything other than to significantly increase traffic on East Dulwich Grove, but it?s an interesting theory!

exdulwicher Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Serena2012 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

> > In particular, I would be very interested to see

> the

> > modelling of likely impact on traffic flow and

> > volume, as well as understanding whether any

> > improvements to the hazardous junction between

> > East Dulwich Grove and Lordship Lane are

> > considered.

>

> I'd love to see that one - the junction is very

> small, comes almost right onto the roundabout at

> Goose Green and takes buses. Maybe - just maybe -

> the hoped-for reduction in traffic along ED Grove

> means that the LL / EDG junction doesn't actually

> need any mitigation as it'll be quieter anyway?

[Serena2012]

Lillypilly Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> From what I can see, during the restricted turn

> hours, there will still be vehicle flow along

> Townley from LL to the Townley/EDG junction, where

> the traffic will mostly turn left towards Village

> Way, rather than right to the LL end of East

> Dulwich Grove (only permit holders can turn

> right). Vehicles coming out of Calton Ave (which

> will be closed at the super busy Court Lane end)

> are currently the main contributors to this

> right-turning traffic into East Dulwich Grove,

> along with traffic that has turned off LL onto

> Townley already. So there might actually be

> benefits for the LL end of East Dulwich Grove, as

> it won?t be receiving this traffic from Calton and

> Townley. There?s also the question of who the

> permit holders for full access to and from Townley

> Road will be - the recent explanatory documents

> mention access for residents and permit holders

> (i.e. these are not one and the same thing). I

> wouldn?t be surprised if the school coaches are

> granted permits so, again, some concerns for the

> LL end of EDG might not eventuate as the coaches

> may use Townley Road still. As others have noted,

> it is not as straightforward as a problem in one

> area being pushed into another.

>

> What is clear, however, is that the current

> situation on Townley Road is dangerous and is

> getting worse. I walk it with my children at

> school time every day. The traffic is

> bumper-to-bumper in the rush hours, the air

> quality is poor (you can smell the fumes), and

> there are frequent near-miss accidents between

> school children and vehicles. It?s not just

> Alleyn?s and JAGS kids that are affected, it?s

> children from all the surrounding schools who use

> this very popular walking route to school - incl

> DVIS, Dulwich Hamlet, Charter, Herne Hill. There

> are far too many children being dropped off to

> school at Alleyn?s and JAGS by car, and far too

> many rat-runners. The whole Dulwich/ED area is

> changed for the better in non-term-time. Re.

> schools stopping students from driving to school,

> I know from an Alleyn?s parent that the school has

> tried to do this, but it made no real difference.

Thanks for your insight re: impact on the Northern segment of East Dulwich Grove. Based on my interpretation, the restriction seeks to stop vehicles turning from East Dulwich Grove onto Townley Road, as opposed to any restriction on the direction from which vehicles that have made it onto Townley Road can turn. Moreover, Townley will be closed at the Lordship Lane end. I shall engage in the consultation and watch out for any transport modelling with bated breath...

[hammerman]

bobbsy Wrote:

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> Phase 3 starts tomorrow:

>

> https://www.southwark.gov.uk/transport-and-roads/r

> oadworks-and-highway-improvements/street-improveme

> nts/our-healthy-streets-Dulwich

Looks like after Phase 3 has started this will become active in 2021. Southwark started Phase 1 and 2 a while ago due to school time congestion in the Goodrich Road area according to the website. Goodrich will probably become another school street parking thing to discourage parents from parking in the area.

If this Phase 3 Dulwich scheme goes ahead it will create massive traffic problems and therefore pollution problems for people who are walking/cycling surely?

[Lillypilly]

Hi Serena. So here's the document I've been looking at. https://consultations.southwark.gov.uk/environment-leisure/our-healthy-streets-dulwich-phase-3/supporting_documents/OHS%20Dulwich%20Phase%203%20FAQ.pdf

It shows Townley Road open at the junction of Lordship Lane (and as a way for non-permit holders to move through to Dovercourt, Woodwarde, etc). And that the only vehicles that will be able to exit Townley onto East Dulwich Grove during the restricted hours will be permit holders. This is in addition to the restriction on vehicles entering Townley that you mention.

[tiddles]

The private schools have slightly different term times to the state schools. When the state schools close the traffic is dramatically reduced. There?s the problem ....

[singalto]

So much money has already been spent on traffic in DV making the junction at the village much more dangerous to navigate. How are emergency vehicles going to get through if the Carlton Avenue/ village junction is pedestrianised and several major roads are one way? People who want to drive will find a way simply increasing traffic in other areas.

[ed_pete]

I suspect that Townley will be a nightmare at picking up/dropping off time. Cars will enter from LL or via Dovercourt/Beauval then as they cannot exit onto EDG, u-turn and go back the way they came. Of course the road is already blocked with coaches at this time and so cue gridlock and road-rage as owners of huge SUV's attempt 17 point turns...

[creditwheredue]

Unless they?re issued permits which wouldn?t surprise me. The council are doing everything to please Alleyn?s who are the cause of the problem and saying FU to everyone else.

[Lou]

tiddles Wrote:

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> The private schools have slightly different term

> times to the state schools. When the state schools

> close the traffic is dramatically reduced. There?s

> the problem ....

I would be really interested to see the statistics for this- As someone who walks down Townley Road every day to take my kids to a state school - I notice a massive difference when the private schools break up. Its so quiet!

When state schools are closed, I don't walk down there - So would be really interesting if it is reduced even

further.

[Monkey]

As soon as the private schools break up, Townley Road and Dulwich Village junctions are absolutely fine.

It?s Alleyn?s and Jags causing the problem. They should sort it and certainly not be looking to expand.

Why don?t they convert their expansive grounds into a car park for the use of all their customers?

[El Presidente]

Monkey Wrote:

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> As soon as the private schools break up, Townley

> Road and Dulwich Village junctions are absolutely

> fine.

>

> It?s Alleyn?s and Jags causing the problem. They

> should sort it and certainly not be looking to

> expand.

>

> Why don?t they convert their expansive grounds

> into a car park for the use of all their

> customers?

Precisely. The whole of ED is going to be put at major inconvenience/increased risk because of two expensive fee paying schools and the pattern of behaviour their parents exhibit.

But protesting will make no difference. Southwark never consult meaningfully. They consult to say they have consulted then crack on with what they have already decided they will do. This will be no different.

[Townleygreen]

Yawn. The playing fields are protected like parks and other urban open space.

[Penguin68]

I am assuming that once the ULEZ is introduced inside the South Circular air quality should substantially improve - or otherwise why is it being done?

So the current measures of air quality which are driving this will no longer be relevant. Nor will they continue to be relevant as electric cars (which can be charged in Townley, I note) become increasingly prevalent.

No doubt all these anti-car measures will eventually be withdrawn, unless they are there not for 'healthy' streets but for unhealthy envy?

[alice]

TG If you keep saying something it doesn?t make it true.

[Townleygreen]

alice

have a look at Southwark's borough plan. The areas of Metropolitan Opem Land are clearly shown to include these schools' playing fields.

As one would expect.

I can't see what point you're trying to make.

[mikeb]

Alleyns has more than once obtained permission to develop land which is designated MOL e.g. the theatre

[exdulwicher]

mikeb Wrote:

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> Alleyns has more than once obtained permission to

> develop land which is designated MOL e.g. the

> theatre

They did that by claiming the community benefits outweighed the loss of green space and as the "green space" was all their wasteland or "non functional sports grounds" anyway, it was a fairly easy sell to the council. Same way they got the hockey pitch swapped from grass to Astroturf.

Building car parks is another kettle of fish entirely and is almost certain to be rejected. The problem is not really the parking - yes there's a few of the 6th Form pupils that drive but more of an issue is the drop-off / pick-up and extra parking wouldn't solve that.

Most councils now are at the point of being legally obliged to do something about the air quality, congestion and so on. Doing nothing and waiting for ULEZ to kick in isn't an option. Doing nothing and waiting for everyone to drive electric vehicles is also not an option. And EVs do nothing to solve congestion. You simply swap a fume-laden traffic jam to a clean traffic jam but it's stll a traffic jam preventing people from getting around efficiently.

[Townleygreen]

actually exdulwicher,Southwark didn't agree to the theatre - Alleyn's had to appeal to the Secretary of State who granted permission.

[oliver010]

The Healthy Streets approach aims to create pleasant, safe and attractive streets where noise, air pollution, convenient transportation and lack of seating and shelter are not a barrier to people (especially our most vulnerable).

[oliver010]

The Healthy Streets approach aims to create pleasant, safe and attractive streets where noise, air pollution, convenient transportation and lack of seating and shelter are not a barrier to people.

[sand12]

Just got back from Townley Road. The street is filled with cars parked in every available stretch. Thru traffic is a mess. Alleyn's teams are playing but there is no provision for the teams or spectators parking at all. The assumption is the neighboring streets and residents will bear the brunt of the added pollution and congestion, even at the weekend. I walk that stretch weekly and there are excellent bus connections on LL and EDG for anyone to use as well as walking/cycling options. The council needs to take active measures to discourage people from using cars to access these spaces when PT options are already available. The plan above is a step in the right direction, but I do think weekend measures also need to be considered as well. This is a great area with many amenities like the playing fields, which should be accessible to all, but not if you have to hold your breath through a fog of fumes and bumper to bumper irrate drivers.