LTN: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3

[Chris_1]

The working group has met a couple of times apparently, there?s been some chatter with TfL about the Herne Hill junction but anticipate this will be very slow (multi year - if at all). I?m not sure if they are meeting on a regular schedule or if it was just a couple of chats so they could say they were working to help Croxted.

[Metallic]

Chris_1 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The working group has met a couple of times

> apparently, there?s been some chatter with TfL

> about the Herne Hill junction but anticipate this

> will be very slow (multi year - if at all). I?m

> not sure if they are meeting on a regular schedule

> or if it was just a couple of chats so they could

> say they were working to help Croxted.

And of course not inviting you Croxted roaders to join in. That is far too obvious.

[Chris_1]

That was raised/suggested at one of the meetings we have had over the last year with various councillors/MP but unfortunately nothing has come of it.

It?s a bit like the ?main road measures? term that periodically gets thrown around (More not less, main road measures next - etc). All talk and no action.

[Metallic]

I attended. I did see plenty of people who live in Court Lane, Woodwarde Road and Calton Avenue present. With signs. I thought the speakers were very good. The chap in the chinos very on the Dulwich Alliance message (missed name as couldn't hear at the start), David from @LittleNinja who I admire tremendously for his work, and then the very sad stories read out on behalf of others. There must be so many people like them in the stories, I'm not affected in the ways outlined but then, I am proud to say I have a drop or two of empathy.

Sadly no councillors or the MPs. And no other pro-LTN groups representatives around to engage with us who were there. I suppose it was half term and maybe people not available but to not see anyone making themselves known as a councillor was pretty sad. A missed trick.

[Rockets]

I see Clean Air Dulwich are claiming it was dangerous for cyclists as it was all blocked.

Well it wasn't as there was a dedicated cycle route through the crowd which was taped off and being marshalled as directed by the police. They just chose not to use it.

You have to wonder why some are so hell-bent on de-0ositioning a group protesting. Maybe the issue was there were so many people protesting that groups like Clean Air Dulwich take offence to.

[Metallic]

Rockets Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I see Clean Air Dulwich are claiming it was

> dangerous for cyclists as it was all blocked.

>

>

> 220094906372?t=LrQQm5VTB4tXDAStnhHONg&s=19

>

> Well it wasn't as there was a dedicated cycle

> route through the crowd which was taped off and

> being marshalled as directed by the police. They

> just chose not to use it.

>

> You have to wonder why some are so hell-bent on

> de-0ositioning a group protesting. Maybe the issue

> was there were so many people protesting that

> groups like Clean Air Dulwich take offence to.

In fact the pavements remained open, because I stood on the one by the Burial Ground for quite a while and saw cyclists using the cycle lane protected by tape. Some cyclists used the pavement rather than get off their bikes, but it was all perfectly safe. I suggest whoever Clean Air Dulwich is, it is a bit of bah humbug.

[Rockets]

Lots of bah humbug on display today.

What they fail to realize is there was a dedicated, marshalled lane to the left of the junction through the crowd. But hey, never let the truth get in the way of a good story!

[Otto2]

I cycled through. Both ways. The issue is that this was a narrow area for two way traffic on bikes. Turning from Village Way onto Calton was a little tricky but do-able. If someone were cycling the opposite way at the time I would have been stuck in the middle of the roadway though. Thankfully I was not.

Edited to say there were no marshals that I saw on my way thru.

[Artemis]

Wouldn?t it be lovely if people thought ?other people are really upset here, let?s try and appreciate why rather than immediately attacking them?? And if the Councillors thought ?we have a horribly divided community, let?s do something to try and unite it?? I think a lot of us who don?t agree with the LTNs appreciate the intention behind them, but think for this particular area they aren?t working, as they are having a negative impact on a lot of people and businesses, but would be delighted if we could all work together to find a solution that allows active travel, reduces traffic and allows free passage to those who genuinely need to use cars. Why not put our energies into lobbying for better public transport or genuine school streets (on streets where there actually schools) rather than petty swipes, belittling and intimidation? Or am I incredibly idealistic and naive?

[Rockets]

What's funny is that yesterday there was a taped off, marshalled lane in front of Au Ciel as the police told the organisers that that's where they needed to keep the road clear.

The previous week a full music ensemble set-up blocking the same area for the Music in the Square event and not a single person tried to cycle through and take issue with it.

Funny that.....

[Artemis]

Otto2 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I cycled through. Both ways. The issue is that

> this was a narrow area for two way traffic on

> bikes. Turning from Village Way onto Calton was a

> little tricky but do-able. If someone were cycling

> the opposite way at the time I would have been

> stuck in the middle of the roadway though.

> Thankfully I was not.

>

> Edited to say there were no marshals that I saw on

> my way thru.

This was a one-off, marshalled event, with the police in attendance. The marshalls I saw were frequently asking people to keep cycle ways clear. It was a polite and good humoured event, and allowed people the right to freedom of speech. I am sorry that you were mildly inconvenienced, but I imagine that those living on roads which now have considerably increased traffic/pollution would not consider it as much of an inconvenience as they experience for many hours a day. Why not listen to what they are saying and try to understand why they might feel upset and let down?

[Metallic]

Otto2 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I cycled through. Both ways. The issue is that

> this was a narrow area for two way traffic on

> bikes. Turning from Village Way onto Calton was a

> little tricky but do-able. If someone were cycling

> the opposite way at the time I would have been

> stuck in the middle of the roadway though.

> Thankfully I was not.

>

> Edited to say there were no marshals that I saw on

> my way thru.

I'm sorry that can't be true because they were all clearly in high vis, and the police were there too when I was there.

[Otto2]

I do feel bad for all the people demonstrating - change is hard.

I've seen people who were initially super irritated by the LTN's that have come round to understand that they are working, that it will take time to see more shift, that they are the first step. That this is a long process. I have a glimmer of hope we will not burn down this planet from that and I do feel for anyone that finds these changes hard.

Metallic - I meant that there were no Marshalls marshalling me thru. I am sure there were Marshalls - just that they had zero involvement with my journeys or ushering etc.

[Artemis]

Otto2 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I do feel bad for all the people demonstrating -

> change is hard.

>

> I've seen people who were initially super

> irritated by the LTN's that have come round to

> understand that they are working, that it will

> take time to see more shift, that they are the

> first step. That this is a long process. I have a

> glimmer of hope we will not burn down this planet

> from that and I do feel for anyone that finds

> these changes hard.

>

> Metallic - I meant that there were no Marshalls

> marshalling me thru. I am sure there were

> Marshalls - just that they had zero involvement

> with my journeys or ushering etc.

But you felt strongly enough to come on here and act as though it were an irresponsibly unmarshalled event. I understand that LTNs are working for some, but you will have seen from the numbers there yesterday that others don?t. My own worry is that they don?t work for the most vulnerable - the elderly, their carers, emergency services and the disabled. And increased pollution on roads isn?t going to stop ?burning down this planet? - wider legislation on car ownership and MUCH better public transport would be more effective. You say ?change is hard?, but when there are no alternative options for the elderly and disabled, something isn?t working and needs to be addressed. Something that works for able bodied young people is fine, but isn?t catering to the less fortunate at the moment, in my view.

[ab29]

Last time I checked this was a democratic country, where people still have a right to protest peacfully. But don't worry Otto - soon you might be able to complain about any protest you don't like and perhaps even put people to jail, courtesy of Priti Patel policing bill. How dare these people from Lordship Lane, Croxted, EDG to claim they don't want more traffic, air pollution and noise on their roads!

[Otto2]

I think the single lane for dual traffic from DV up Calton was not ideal and as others had started to cry that there was nothing wrong, I thought I would add in my personal experience.

I am disabled. Cycling is easier than walking for me. I am BAME. I do not live on an LTN. I live extremely nearby an A road. I work on a busy local road. I am asthmatic. I am over 50. You are speaking for me for the most part but I am not an emergency services worker and it is my understanding they are in close liaison for all these changes.

[Artemis]

My understanding is that the London Ambulance Service has on many occasions asked over many months that the junction at Calton Avenue/Court Lane is opened to allow access for emergency services as it has caused many potentially life threatening delays and the Council has not addressed this to date (although I am pleased to see that their plan is to open it - when, remains to be seen).

[Rockets]

I think LAS and the other emergency services have been telling Southwark the DV measures need to be made permeable since they went in.

Who knows how long it will be before they finally concede. On that note why was Cllr Williams saying they are consulting with residents on the proposed changes on his interview on the BBC - can we expect another consultation?

[DulvilleRes]

Artemis - the council, as a result of listening to the consultation, is going to allow emergency vehicles through Dulwich Square.

I thought it was great that people were out protesting, as other posters have pointed out, that right is currently under threat. The time I was there, it felt pretty well run, though I do find the incessant graffiti on signs a bit depressing.

A few people have mentioned why weren't the councilors not there, and whilst I can't speak for them, I wouldn't blame them for not coming. Even in the last couple of days I heard of one of them being targeted at their home address by person/ persons of anti LTN sentiment. Over the summer, the Police have had to be involved with anti LTN people getting targeted. Clearly, this might be down to as little as one individual who has no formal affiliation with the anti LTN groups, but it is fair to say aspects of this local issue have been surprisingly nasty.

Listening to what I did of the speakers and looking around the attendees, I was surprised how relatively upmarket it all felt, and how the demographic skewed over 50 - very few young people there, and very few people from a BAME background. It didn't really reflect the make up of the borough as a whole. Given the demographic of Dulwich, this is probably to be expected, but it didn't feel like some kind of broad-based egalitarian inspired uprising to me, as some of the anti-LTN rhetoric suggests. A cynic driving by who didn't know some of the complexities of the issues might be forgiven for thinking 'The rich folk of Dulwich want to keep driving their cars'.

I'm hoping that the sensible adjustments the council has proposed are implemented - emergency vehicle access, Blue Badge holder access - and have had time to bed in, the LTN's might be seen as part of the radical shift we're all going to have to make to address the climate crisis. Given that the UK contributes only 1% of the global carbon emissions, it does feel like a long hard road ahead, but fair play to the Council for trying to do something. It would be great if they were given a chance.

[ab29]

The trouble is, we have already given it a chance - the displaced traffic has not disappeared, it has been pushed onto the existing, already busy and densely populated roads.

I look through the window and I don's see any sign of improvement (if there has been, this thread would've died of natural causes long ago). I'm especially despairing about the weekend traffic - weekends used to be quieter, especially Sundays so we had a bit of a respite but now the traffic seems to be as bad as during the week.

I don't think it is fair to ask people to just wait at the expense of their health and well-being. How long the wait? What will be a measure of success? What if in 10 years time the council will admit this was a complete failure? Road tax, help to switch to electric cars (not ideal but better still), improved public transport would be much more effective - and fair.

PS. I'm below 50, I don't drive and never owned a car. I walk and use public transport. Many of my friends and people I know could not attend the protest on Saturday and so the group of people unhappy about LTNs is certainly more varied.

[Hitmyhat]

DulvilleRes Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Artemis - the council, as a result of listening to

> the consultation, is going to allow emergency

> vehicles through Dulwich Square.

>

> I thought it was great that people were out

> protesting, as other posters have pointed out,

> that right is currently under threat. The time I

> was there, it felt pretty well run, though I do

> find the incessant graffiti on signs a bit

> depressing.

>

> A few people have mentioned why weren't the

> councilors not there, and whilst I can't speak for

> them, I wouldn't blame them for not coming. Even

> in the last couple of days I heard of one of them

> being targeted at their home address by person/

> persons of anti LTN sentiment. Over the summer,

> the Police have had to be involved with anti LTN

> people getting targeted. Clearly, this might be

> down to as little as one individual who has no

> formal affiliation with the anti LTN groups, but

> it is fair to say aspects of this local issue have

> been surprisingly nasty.

>

> Listening to what I did of the speakers and

> looking around the attendees, I was surprised how

> relatively upmarket it all felt, and how the

> demographic skewed over 50 - very few young people

> there, and very few people from a BAME background.

> It didn't really reflect the make up of the

> borough as a whole. Given the demographic of

> Dulwich, this is probably to be expected, but it

> didn't feel like some kind of broad-based

> egalitarian inspired uprising to me, as some of

> the anti-LTN rhetoric suggests. A cynic driving by

> who didn't know some of the complexities of the

> issues might be forgiven for thinking 'The rich

> folk of Dulwich want to keep driving their cars'.

>

> I'm hoping that the sensible adjustments the

> council has proposed are implemented - emergency

> vehicle access, Blue Badge holder access - and

> have had time to bed in, the LTN's might be seen

> as part of the radical shift we're all going to

> have to make to address the climate crisis. Given

> that the UK contributes only 1% of the global

> carbon emissions, it does feel like a long hard

> road ahead, but fair play to the Council for

> trying to do something. It would be great if they

> were given a chance.

From what I saw there were plenty of people of all ages there, children included. But as older people (a protected characteristic) are disproportionately disadvantaged by the LTNs I could understand if more of them protested. Btw there were also a lot of disabled people, another protected characteristic, who are also being indirectly discriminated against by the LTNs.

[Artemis]

DulvilleRes Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Artemis - the council, as a result of listening to

> the consultation, is going to allow emergency

> vehicles through Dulwich Square.

>

> I thought it was great that people were out

> protesting, as other posters have pointed out,

> that right is currently under threat. The time I

> was there, it felt pretty well run, though I do

> find the incessant graffiti on signs a bit

> depressing.

>

> A few people have mentioned why weren't the

> councilors not there, and whilst I can't speak for

> them, I wouldn't blame them for not coming. Even

> in the last couple of days I heard of one of them

> being targeted at their home address by person/

> persons of anti LTN sentiment. Over the summer,

> the Police have had to be involved with anti LTN

> people getting targeted. Clearly, this might be

> down to as little as one individual who has no

> formal affiliation with the anti LTN groups, but

> it is fair to say aspects of this local issue have

> been surprisingly nasty.

>

> Listening to what I did of the speakers and

> looking around the attendees, I was surprised how

> relatively upmarket it all felt, and how the

> demographic skewed over 50 - very few young people

> there, and very few people from a BAME background.

> It didn't really reflect the make up of the

> borough as a whole. Given the demographic of

> Dulwich, this is probably to be expected, but it

> didn't feel like some kind of broad-based

> egalitarian inspired uprising to me, as some of

> the anti-LTN rhetoric suggests. A cynic driving by

> who didn't know some of the complexities of the

> issues might be forgiven for thinking 'The rich

> folk of Dulwich want to keep driving their cars'.

>

> I'm hoping that the sensible adjustments the

> council has proposed are implemented - emergency

> vehicle access, Blue Badge holder access - and

> have had time to bed in, the LTN's might be seen

> as part of the radical shift we're all going to

> have to make to address the climate crisis. Given

> that the UK contributes only 1% of the global

> carbon emissions, it does feel like a long hard

> road ahead, but fair play to the Council for

> trying to do something. It would be great if they

> were given a chance.

I rather wish the ?rich folk of Dulwich want to keep driving their cars? fallacy would die a death. I imagine there are some people for whom that is the case, but again we?re getting to the dangerous territory of assuming that everyone who doesn?t hold your own view is selfish and wrong. Different people have different reasons for their beliefs, and attempts to categorise everyone as either ?good? or ?bad? is just stoking division. As it happens, the only people I know who support the LTNs live in the roads that are blocked, and continue to drive large, expensive cars. But I?m not going to draw conclusions from that because I recognise that we are a large and diverse community and different people have different reasons for supporting or opposing the LTNs.

[Metallic]

DulvilleRes Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Artemis - the council, as a result of listening to

> the consultation, is going to allow emergency

> vehicles through Dulwich Square.

>

> I thought it was great that people were out

> protesting, as other posters have pointed out,

> that right is currently under threat. The time I

> was there, it felt pretty well run, though I do

> find the incessant graffiti on signs a bit

> depressing.

>

> A few people have mentioned why weren't the

> councilors not there, and whilst I can't speak for

> them, I wouldn't blame them for not coming. Even

> in the last couple of days I heard of one of them

> being targeted at their home address by person/

> persons of anti LTN sentiment. Over the summer,

> the Police have had to be involved with anti LTN

> people getting targeted. Clearly, this might be

> down to as little as one individual who has no

> formal affiliation with the anti LTN groups, but

> it is fair to say aspects of this local issue have

> been surprisingly nasty.

>

> Listening to what I did of the speakers and

> looking around the attendees, I was surprised how

> relatively upmarket it all felt, and how the

> demographic skewed over 50 - very few young people

> there, and very few people from a BAME background.

> It didn't really reflect the make up of the

> borough as a whole. Given the demographic of

> Dulwich, this is probably to be expected, but it

> didn't feel like some kind of broad-based

> egalitarian inspired uprising to me, as some of

> the anti-LTN rhetoric suggests. A cynic driving by

> who didn't know some of the complexities of the

> issues might be forgiven for thinking 'The rich

> folk of Dulwich want to keep driving their cars'.

>

> I'm hoping that the sensible adjustments the

> council has proposed are implemented - emergency

> vehicle access, Blue Badge holder access - and

> have had time to bed in, the LTN's might be seen

> as part of the radical shift we're all going to

> have to make to address the climate crisis. Given

> that the UK contributes only 1% of the global

> carbon emissions, it does feel like a long hard

> road ahead, but fair play to the Council for

> trying to do something. It would be great if they

> were given a chance.

I saw on twitter that a banner had been left on Margy Newens garden wall, it was her tweet. I don't think anything else has happened as she would say. When I was at the demo I didn't see her or any other councillor I might have recognised. Shame as they would have seen a peaceful protest because of their actions. Using climate change as a paternalistic 'we know best you're having LTN in you area' is highly offensive as it takes no notice of relevant and reasonable viewpoints. And this morning a tweet from Romeo Jones which suggests he has had enough. What a great pity.

[heartblock]

I saw on Twitter the noise abatement society is supporting the demo against LTNs in Dulwich as they cause more noise pollution to be funnelled into roads with higher residential densities.

On another note, green local buses are one of the best forms of transport to reduce pollution as outlined in this report. What a shame Southwark has invested in a pollution making exercise for the less well off to make wealthy areas quieter and bus routes slower.

https://www.uk100.org/publications/supporting-local-authorities-improve-local-bus-use-and-expand-zero-emission-bus

[Rockets]

Latest OneDuwlich update....we made the BBC News.....! ;&)

Our protest against the Dulwich road measures

An estimated 1,000 people living in and around Dulwich ? young families, cyclists, older people and those with disabilities ? took part in our peaceful protest on Saturday 16 October. Thank you to everyone who came. You can see coverage on this BBC local news item here, and we will be putting up clips on social media and on our website shortly. Speakers included clean air campaigner David Smith (also known as @LittleNinjaUK on Twitter) and representatives from One Dulwich and the Dulwich Alliance.

Cllr Rose?s decision

Just before our protest, we discovered that the call-in by Lib Dem councillors on Southwark?s Overview and Scrutiny Committee ? that is, their request for Cllr Rose?s decision to be reviewed ? had been turned down (see this report in the South London Press). We have asked the Council to explain why, and are waiting for their response. As far as we know, this means that there will now be a 21-day statutory consultation period before the traffic orders can be made permanent. We have written to Southwark asking them for information about this ? so far, we can find nothing on their website.

What next?

1. We will be holding further protests in other parts of Dulwich over the next few weeks, which we hope will be good news for those of you who weren?t able to come on Saturday because of half term. Details to follow. Let?s double the size of Saturday?s protest and get even more media coverage.

2. We will also be asking you to respond to Southwark?s 21-day statutory consultation with very specific objections to all the measures over the whole Dulwich area. Again, more to follow once Southwark have provided details of the timeline.

3. Please keep emailing your local councillors, decision-maker [email protected] and your local MP, reminding them (i) that two-thirds of those living and working in all three Dulwich LTNs who responded to Southwark?s consultation opted for all the measures to be removed, and (ii) that the council?s current refusal to listen may be reflected in the results of the local elections in May 2022.

4. If, at the end of the 21-day consultation period, Southwark continues to ignore local demands for a fair scheme that fulfils all its obligations as a local authority, we will ask our legal team to advise on the best course of action. Thanks to your generous donations to our fighting fund, our legal team is reviewing all the paperwork and stands ready to move quickly.

Best wishes,

The One Dulwich