LTN: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3

[Rockets]

Otto2 - nice in theory, completely impractical in practice. Granted, local deliveries can be done by the Pedal Me teams but a house move on a bike - what are they moving, a wendy-house - there's reason removals lorries are as big as they are?

There is not an increase in private cars in London. In fact, private car ownership continues to fall in the capital - even the Guardian admits as much - it is the rise of Uber and delivery vehicles that are causing the problem (the article stats van journeys in London are up 25%):

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/11/how-london-got-rid-of-private-cars-and-grew-more-congested-than-ever

This is why blocking the roads with LTNs makes the problem worse as delivery drivers have to navigate around closures - they still make the journey.

And people are returning to public transport - quicker than anyone expected. I have been very surprised how busy the tubes have been, especially at weekends, the past few weeks. Confidence in public transport is returning.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-58360193

[legalalien]

For small items though, surely it?s better for us to get up off our sofas and walk or cycle to the shop rather than get someone on a bike to bring it to us?

Also - presumably for lots of items it would only ever be last mile delivery by bike - it doesn?t really solve the problem of the massive online consumer culture we?ve developed where we all expect to be able to choose from a boundless array of items sourced from all around the world at the click of a button. Has always been a bugbear of mine - seems as though the massive disruption in global supply chains at present might just fix it for me?. (All a bit of a digression, sorry)

ETA I agree re return to public transport. I went into the West End a couple of times by train / tube / bus and was surprised how busy it was.

[Siduhe]

I agree that it's important for everyone who can to limit the amount of deliveries they receive at home by car or van - by which I mean ordering less for delivery and choosing providers who deliver in an eco-friendly way.

Also that there are plenty of people for whom this is simply not an option, and plenty of things that you need delivered in a truck or van (can't see a washing machine on the back of a cargo bike with the best will in the world).

I made a conscious decision to try and wean myself off Amazon a while back - I'm not 100% successful but I've massively cut down. The only things we get delivered regularly are:

Riverford - meat and veg delivered in an electric van;

Freddies Flowers - cargo bike; and

Dabbadrop - cargo bike.

I'm the first one to criticise the way I think the LTNs have been implemented and the adverse impacts they are having on some, but the fact is we all need to make changes to the way we do things regardless of whether the LTNs stay, are changed in some way or go. And those of us that have the ability to be able to choose better suppliers need to do it now.

[Spartacus]

Interesting last few posts.

My thoughts on delivery are along the lines of:

The harder it is for local residents to get to certain shops (be it bike, public transport, car or foot) so that they can do a multi store shop, the more likely it is that they will get the same item(s) they were shopping for delivered.

This potentially removes one car journey to say Croydon or Bromley town centres for multiple items to then be ordered online from big faceless corporations to be delivered to one single address by multiple delivery companies. Even worse if the consumer is out resulting in multiple redeliveries being also required.

Are LTNs addressing this elephant in the road or making it harder to do the one centre shop thus driving up the number of delivery vehicles ?

I suspect it's a bit of a 50:50 scenario and whilst we all want to shop more locally, there are times when going further afield to bigger shopping areas is a must.

Bet that effect hadn't been considered in all of the LTN arguments 🤔

[heartblock]

Some items or trades need to use vehicles and of course we all really would like these to be cleaner and greener. I echo the post about local businesses and trades absolutely hating coming to ED Grove because of the increased traffic and the lack of parking for trades to pay on the day. I've had plumbers and builders for the past 4 weeks and it has been awful for them.

[Otto2]

You'd be surprised how much these guys can deliver by bicycle! Here's one example...

[legalalien]

Looks like it! I'd be interested to know the distances though - if stuff is still being driven around the country by lorry and then delivered using cycle for the last km then the overall journeys need to be taken into account. I have no idea how it all works - but it seems to be a very complex picture that would need a lot of unpacking to analyse... someone producing goods in Kent and driving them to mine might end up being overall more efficient/ green than a product being produced much further away, transported to a local depot and then taken the last little bit by bike, thereby seeming sustainable etc, if yswim.

[northernmonkey]

Last mile logistics are a really interesting area and super critical for cities. Its not just the fuel burnt but the maximum capacity of our roads that means getting this right is key. Sadly for Southwark the last thing I saw from Cllr Burgess who had responsibility for this was a year into role her suggesting that she do some 'blue sky thinking' which was a disappointingly pitiful response given her responsibility.

Legal you are right to differentiate between the amazon next day deliveries which clearly are increasing overall miles driven vs weekly shops in delivery vans, which depending on routes may actually result in an overall fall in miles driven.

[bels123]

Otto2 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> You'd be surprised how much these guys can deliver

> by bicycle! Here's one example...

>

> https://twitter.com/pedalmeapp/status/123481456617

> 9254272?s=20

This is a good website - it?s a directory of companies and tradespeople who deliver by bike

http://broughtbybike.com/

[legalalien]

Thanks bels123. Some of the things on there - bike maintenance and the handyman look good. But there is a preponderance of luxury baked goods / craft beer / artisan coffee / flowers that does give the whole thing a certain vibe - they?re not things I buy a lot of (age and spending priorities I guess), and if I did I?d def walk to the shop rather than having them delivered.

Was also interested to see how the London bike hire place has so many pictures encouraging people to swap public transport for cycling (and in one of them walking for cycling), which fits with something posted on here a while ago to the effect that a lot of the initial switch to cycling was from those modes rather than from cars. And also brought home to me that there are commercial interests behind encouraging cycling, it?s not all just altruism.

There?s some interesting reading around attempts to encourage bike deliveries in the US, eg https://www.forbes.com/sites/andriacheng/2019/12/04/amid-record-online-sales-new-york-is-working-with-amazon-others-to-test-cargo-bike-delivery-your-city-will-be-next/?sh=1058a700393f

https://depts.washington.edu/sctlctr/news-events/in-the-news/electric-bike-could-change-delivery-we-know-it ( trigger warning for some - the suggestion that you might ultimately need two sets of cycle lanes, one for recreational cycling and one for commerce)

And then this cautionary tale about the risk of exploitation / crime against cycle delivery workers

https://www.theverge.com/22667600/delivery-workers-seamless-uber-relay-new-york-electric-bikes-apps

I?m still erring on the side of ?we should encourage people to get out of their houses and go to the shops and discourage home delivery of small and unnecessary items, even if the deliveries are by bike?.

[legalalien]

Here?s the formal decision on the revised Dulwich proposals, includes a summary of responses received on the revised proposal

https://moderngov.southwark.gov.uk/documents/s102048/Record%20of%20Decison.pdf

Come on LDs on the scrutiny commission - call it in for further discussion on the decision making process!

[walkingtall]

I cannot drive to my home from the closed junction in Dulwich village that would take me 30 seconds, so I drive for around 45 minutes to get to my home

I have to drive I need my tools to carry out my job

But three times a week i have to listen to a lorry?s engine running for up to an hour making delivery?s to the crown and greyhound pub

I have complained to the company and been told this has to happen because it?s a refrigerated vehicle

As I write this the lorries engine has been running for 25 minutes

So frustrating

[legalalien]

Hopefully technology will come to your rescue sooner rather than later: https://www.coolingpost.com/world-news/hydrogen-fuel-cell-refrigerated-trailer-begins-road-testing/

[Rockets]

legalalien Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Here?s the formal decision on the revised Dulwich

> proposals, includes a summary of responses

> received on the revised proposal

>

> https://moderngov.southwark.gov.uk/documents/s1020

> 48/Record%20of%20Decison.pdf

>

> Come on LDs on the scrutiny commission - call it

> in for further discussion on the decision making

> process!

How can we leverage the LDs to do something? I know they support the strategic intent of the LTNs but can't be happy with the way Labour have handled the consultation. Can James Barber help provide some info on who to try to influence on this? This borough council desperately needs some vocal opposition.

[legalalien]

Would it make sense to have a different route at school times and no. School times eg a school hopper at pick up times and then a shopping/ medical etc hopper at other times? And perhaps it needs to extend towards Herne Hill?

[legalalien]

yes, I was thinking about how people from the court/ woodwarde side could get over to burbage/ townley more easily.

[Metallic]

P3girl Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Like the Bermuda Triangle, the Dulwich Triangle,

> bounded by LL/EDG/DV is almost "dead zone" for

> people with cars. There is no bus service that

> crosses the zone so elderly and disabled people on

> the Western side of the triangle have a long hike

> if they need to travel to LL shops and the

> library. Similarly residents on the South Eastern

> side have a long hike to get to places like Tessa

> Jowell Centre, ND Station and Dulwich Park. Plus

> shops and businesses on LL and DV suffer because

> of traffic congestion.

>

> One suggestion would be to run a smallish bus

> (electric) on a circular route as shown on the

> map. It would mean opening a bus gate in DV. It's

> all LH turns so could operate efficiently. I am

> confident it would remove quite a bit of local

> traffic.

>

> The route could be shortened by opening Melbourne

> Grove to a bus gate.

>

> Just a suggestion to garner ideas.

>

> https://i.imgur.com/HQ66lNe.jpg

I know this has been suggested many times. A green bus linking West Dulwich, Herne Hill, the Village and Lordship Lane somewhere. I seem to remember Cllr Leeming saying too expensive on a zoom meeting, or at least maybe in the chat, can't recall which.

[heartblock]

And the triangle of residential roads is not only impacted negatively in terms of pollution, noise and traffic, but buses are soooooo slow. It begs the question - what has Southwark Council got against public transport?

Saturday jams right now on ED Grove, horrid out there.

[malumbu]

With the ULEZ fast approaching I understand that quite a few much older petrol cars (ie pre 05/06) will be compliant. These do not have limits on their particulate matter. The good news on petrol is that following the Los Angeles smogs of the 70s new technology was introduced that reduced pollution - fuel injection and three way catalysts.

Yet a 20 year old petrol vehicle may be rater worn, and therefore burning more engine oil, but falling short of the black or blue smoke that will fail it's MOT.

On the post about refrigerated vehicles idling and polluting, there are technologies that can reduce this but I fear hasn't been widespread adoption. My worse example is older ice cream vans, with black smoke pouring out, whilst the engine was running and powering the generator. They seem to be exempt from everything!

[geh]

if money from endless and pointless consultations were used, plus the million odd quid from the DV junction works rendered obsolete by the closure and creation of Dulwich Square, Leeming may find the cost more palatable.

[alice]

I like the idea and can see the benefits for Dulwich Village residents. But how does it help those key workers that live South of Dulwich? It would increase their journey times even further.

What about trialling a re-route of the P4 to use the bus gate on Court Lane emerging by the library to allow easy/West transit from Lewisham to Brixton?

[legalalien]

That would work better for the bus generally, but possibly not so well for the many students that use the P4 to get to and from DC and Kingsdale? Similar to previous comment a I think separating out the peak time school routes from the rest of the day is worth consideration.

[alice]

Yes it would leave a 10/12 minute walk for students and if that?s too long, perhaps the route could vary for that school rush. It would?ve very handy for those at the top end of Barry.

[legalalien]

Agree. The 10-12 mins ought to be a non issue for those living locally, I?m just thinking about those who come from further away, Kingsdale has a fairly big catchment for example. Of course if all the schools including the independents limited their catchments a bit more geographically it would help with a lot of transport issues. It?s crazy the way Dulwich children are being shipped to Croydon, Catford and Eltham having just missed Dulwich places, and vice versa in the other direction.

[alice]

The p buses can catch people who live off the main bus routes. It would be good if tfl could look to see how those routes be made more efficient and therefore provide an alternative to driving for those longer cross borough boundary work / school journeys.

The P4 suffers the awful slowness of the South circular; rerouted along Court would speed up that section of the journey.