LTN: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3

[DulwichCentral]

heartblock Wrote:

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> Most of those huge metal boxes with leather sofas

> can be seen parked on Calton, Court and Melbourne,

> I walk down those roads often and always amazed at

> the huge Range Rovers, BMWs etc. In the case of

> Calton, usually another car parked on the drive

> and in the case of Gilkes a car on the drive, one

> on the road, one in the garage and one parked at

> the second home in .... Southwold, The Lakes,

> Norfolk......

@heartblock why don't you take this up with your fellow anti-LTNer Abe_Froeman who says a luxury car makes you 'appreciate all the good things in life'? You never know - he might even be a neighbour living on EDG

[Rockets]

But DC is an electric metal box better than a petrol or diesel one?

[heartblock]

Just like people who think that LTNs are the answer, people who think LTNs are not the answer, do not belong to some tribe that can be labelled as ?petrol-heads?, BREXIT voting, right-wing, anti-environment. I have had these comments on Twitter and here...intimating that everyone who thinks LTNs are a bad idea is a certain ?type?.

I think this is both insulting and lazy. I don?t know how many times I have seen LTN Twitter supporters tell Rosamund Kissi-Debrah that she is supporting pollution increases or trying to no platform her, because part of her campaign to make our air less polluted, includes her vehement opposition to what she believes is socially unjust road closures that only benefit the richest in society.

[DulwichCentral]

I didn't say all that. You did.

[heartblock]

Back to the subject. These LTNs do not reduce traffic, reduce pollution and cause more people to cycle in any significant measurable way. There is stronger evidence that on certain residential roads that they have increased traffic at certain junction (200% in the case of ED Grove) and have impacted already polluted roads.

Do go and look at Grove Vale, where people live, walk, shop and cycle, stalled traffic on a Saturday and surrounded by 3 LTNs.

[Artemis]

What the LTNs do not address is the massive (and ever increasing) number of online deliveries. Are we surprised that roads are clogged when several billion parcels are despatched every year? When the expectation is that you can order your groceries, clothing, household goods etc. and they will turn up at your front door the next day, traffic is not going away. I would hazard to guess that a significantly high proportion of traffic clogging the roads is made up of delivery drivers, rather than local drivers doing short journeys (which seems to be the assumption of many people). And that traffic is not going to ?evaporate? - it is irrelevant to the consumer sitting at home whether the delivery driver has sat in traffic for three hours or not -they just have an expectation that their consumer goods will arrive. The narrative ?you need to get out of your car and walk/cycle and we won?t have a problem? is failing to address one of the most significant reasons for increasing traffic, in my view.

[heartblock]

It has definitely added, but weirdly the Council has very few designated parking for tradesmen, plumbers, electricians, builders and I know that they drive around for hours looking fo a parking space. Ocado has ?greener? slots so if you do have deliveries then you can try and book one of those. Riverford delivers very early and only once a week in a green van, Waitrose, Sainsbury?s etc ??

Is it greener that one van delivers groceries to many, or that individuals drive to do their big weekly shop, are deliveries a sign of lower car ownership?

I think this is difficult to measure and are you more likely to have delivery if you don?t have a car.

I?m trying to have more delivered to a pickup such as the Co-op but even then it needs to be delivered there.

For the elderly and less mobile, delivery has been an excellent and helpful service.

I don?t know what the answer is.

[ab29]

Just a reminder that MONDAY 27 SEPTEMBER is the deadline for sending objections to the LTNs.

Please send an email to [email protected], copying in [email protected].

[Rockets]

Malumbu - I am a functional cyclist not a fanatical cyclist and the problem is cycling has been infiltrated by fanatics and fantasists who believe that cycling is the only solution to London's problems and pedal, no pun intended, misinformation to force their agenda.

The recent "2020 saw the biggest rise in cycling" narrative is a prime example - when other data is showing those increases have evaporated.

[andrewc]

I had a look for myself just now on a Saturday morning and Grove Vale was running freely. Apart from the queue to the petrol station!

That's not to say that that there is no congestion at other times...just not this morning.

[JohnL]

heartblock Wrote:

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> It has definitely added, but weirdly the Council

> has very few designated parking for tradesmen,

> plumbers, electricians, builders and I know that

> they drive around for hours looking fo a parking

> space. Ocado has ?greener? slots so if you do have

> deliveries then you can try and book one of those.

> Riverford delivers very early and only once a week

> in a green van, Waitrose, Sainsbury?s etc ??

>

> Is it greener that one van delivers groceries to

> many, or that individuals drive to do their big

> weekly shop, are deliveries a sign of lower car

> ownership?

>

> I think this is difficult to measure and are you

> more likely to have delivery if you don?t have a

> car.

> I?m trying to have more delivered to a pickup such

> as the Co-op but even then it needs to be

> delivered there.

> For the elderly and less mobile, delivery has been

> an excellent and helpful service.

> I don?t know what the answer is.

Milk carts used to be battery powered and very slow - but they did their deliveries.

Planning and Patience I guess

[legalalien]

This.

Artemis Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> What the LTNs do not address is the massive (and

> ever increasing) number of online deliveries. Are

> we surprised that roads are clogged when several

> billion parcels are despatched every year? When

> the expectation is that you can order your

> groceries, clothing, household goods etc. and they

> will turn up at your front door the next day,

> traffic is not going away. I would hazard to

> guess that a significantly high proportion of

> traffic clogging the roads is made up of delivery

> drivers, rather than local drivers doing short

> journeys (which seems to be the assumption of many

> people). And that traffic is not going to

> ?evaporate? - it is irrelevant to the consumer

> sitting at home whether the delivery driver has

> sat in traffic for three hours or not -they just

> have an expectation that their consumer goods will

> arrive. The narrative ?you need to get out of

> your car and walk/cycle and we won?t have a

> problem? is failing to address one of the most

> significant reasons for increasing traffic, in my

> view.

[malumbu]

Rocks, I expect most cyclists are either functional and/or leisure cyclists. I don't recognise many you accuse of being fanatics. Irrelevant to the LTN, and one more road journey by bike = one less car journey which surely you must be in favour of. Come to one of the Southwark LCC social rides on a Saturday morning, perhaps your views may change.

Deliveries, big Lounge type conversation there. As much to do with the mentality of I must have it now, as well as the try it and return. Roll on Cop 26.

[Lynne]

Anyone seen the jams all round the roundabout this morning. Very healthy

[first mate]

Excellent post Artemis.

legalalien Wrote:

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> This.

>

>

> Artemis Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > What the LTNs do not address is the massive

> (and

> > ever increasing) number of online deliveries.

> Are

> > we surprised that roads are clogged when

> several

> > billion parcels are despatched every year?

> When

> > the expectation is that you can order your

> > groceries, clothing, household goods etc. and

> they

> > will turn up at your front door the next day,

> > traffic is not going away. I would hazard to

> > guess that a significantly high proportion of

> > traffic clogging the roads is made up of

> delivery

> > drivers, rather than local drivers doing short

> > journeys (which seems to be the assumption of

> many

> > people). And that traffic is not going to

> > ?evaporate? - it is irrelevant to the consumer

> > sitting at home whether the delivery driver has

> > sat in traffic for three hours or not -they

> just

> > have an expectation that their consumer goods

> will

> > arrive. The narrative ?you need to get out of

> > your car and walk/cycle and we won?t have a

> > problem? is failing to address one of the most

> > significant reasons for increasing traffic, in

> my

> > view.

[northernmonkey]

Not sure if you?ve been in an underground bunker, but there is mass panic buying of fuel with shortages and 2 mile queues reported. It?s nothing to do with LTNs and everything to do with Brexit and government incompetence!

Lynne Wrote:

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> Anyone seen the jams all round the roundabout this

> morning. Very healthy

[ab29]

The traffic on the main roads like EDG, LL, Croxted, South Circular etc has been made much worst by the so-called LTNs.

You can deny it all you want - those of us who happen to live on those roads have been experiencing a massive increase in traffic after the roads were closed.

Add the panicked drivers to the mix and you get a horrendous traffic like today.

[ab29]

Post by DougieFreeman - re-posting it here as I think it sums things up brilliantly. And pay attention to the last sentence.

"I personally don?t care whether a hundred thousand cyclists turned up all living in SE22 (or all living in Kent) for the flotilla, it?s quite frankly irrelevant as it is not in any way representative of the real world day to day normality of road use in the area.

The fact is most active travel is made on foot. And in my view any measures that are put in that cause greater levels of pollution and/or congestion jeopardise the health and safety of all those making those active journeys.

I don?t believe there is any validity in the notion that removing LTNs is wrong because it would be putting more cars on side streets and so anyone pushing for that must ultimately have the goal of more cars on side streets.

UNLESS you also accept that the very implementation of the LTNs in the first place put more cars on side streets (LL, EDG etc are hardly bigger than the ?side streets? that have been filtered - they?re still residential roads after all).

The scheme is a failure, completely unfair and should be replaced with something else entirely (with proper consultation with all residents). Cue the ?ah so you just want to go back to loads more cars on the road - you?d rather just do nothing...? brigade. No, of course not. But I don?t believe that the ideology of cyclists and the environmentally conscious should somehow trump the rights to clean air of a selection of unfortunate residents.

If you cannot give clean air and quiet streets to everyone, then your scheme needs work. If you are giving wealthy residents clean air and quiet streets at the expense of a selection of (arguably less wealthy) residents then your scheme is not fit for purpose. There is simply no acceptable excuse for forcing these measures on people.

Until a fair solution can be found, air pollution (as horrific as it may be) should be shared equally by all residents as it is all of our burden to bear (not just an unfortunate selection)".

[malumbu]

How do you share pollution out? Irrespective of the LTNs the main trunk roads have always been the most polluted. They are the roads that are designed to carry more traffic. Those with more money will almost always chose to live in quieter roads. If you want to take traffic off the pinch points such as say Catford Bridge or the Brixton Road then you'd have to widen many local roads.

You'd need a great fire of London or a Blitz to redesign the road network.

It doesn't make it right that those most vulnerable are more likely to live in inadequate housing, suffer social and health problems and have the highest levels of pollution. But I struggle to see what your solution is in sharing pollution out equally. Unless you are talking about restricting road traffic, which would very much support.

[Artemis]

Would it not make more sense to look at the reasons why cars/vans/etc are on the road and trying to work collaboratively to address which journeys could be cut out or made by alternative means (by that I mean government, local councils, London Transport, business and individuals working together) rather than talking about ?sharing pollution out?? Just shifting the problem around and bringing in diversions and bottle necks is not looking at the fundamentals of why people are on the road. Assumptions are being made which do not seem to be made on any real analysis. The cycling lobby seem to be making assumptions that people are all making short journeys in cars when they just need a nudge to get on their bikes - that isn?t borne out by what we?re seeing (any increases in cycle journeys may seem significant in percentage numbers, but in actual numbers are still tiny as a percentage of the population). They are not concentrating on other reasons why the road may be being used (eg online deliveries, Uber). Would fewer people drive if the money being used for cycle ways and LTNs were instead put into public transport? Perhaps.

[heartblock]

East Dulwich Grove and the houses were built as a residential road for workers on the trains, nurses and soldiers circa 1880 - 1886, it is a narrow road with trees all along it and was not built as a super-highway, as per Croxted Rd and yes people who are less well off tend to live in flats, without gardens on busier roads.

But thanks malumbu for expressing what many of us have been saying. LTNs benefit wealthy, white middle and upper middle classes who own very large houses and own multiple cars and have a high percentage of second homes.

Ethnic minorities, less well-off, the elderly poor, single parents who live in flats, who depend on public transport and are less likely to own cars and cannot escape to the Lakes, Norfolk, Southwold suffer more traffic and pollution due to LTNS.

Great isn't it - a scheme that the Consultation indicates is unpopular, with no data that confirms a drop in car use, a drop in pollution or an increase in cycling since the end of lockdown, but does show an increase in pollution and traffic on certain residential roads - at a time traffic and pollution dropped across London due to lockdown! - is still strangely supported.

It only beggars belief - if you don't understand that the people who still shout out loud about how brilliant LTNs are - live in Gilkes, Court, Melbourne, Derwent and all own cars...some of them owning several..

[Jenijenjen]

heartblock Wrote:

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> East Dulwich Grove and the houses were built as a

> residential road for workers on the trains, nurses

> and soldiers circa 1880 - 1886, it is a narrow

> road with trees all along it and was not built as

> a super-highway ?

Take a look at this extract from an OS map surveyed in 1863. You will see that most of what is now called East Dulwich Grove is laid out and there are very few houses. Perhaps the section east of Green Lane (Greendale) was built in 1888 but most of the road had already been built as a thoroughfare long before the houses. North Dulwich Station is at the bottom left hand corner.

[Rockets]

Looks like Southwark are getting some attention from the Torygraph...Cllr Rose's comments are beyond parody....

[tiddles]

So she?s saying they weren?t going to take any notice anyway? So why the **** was all that money spent on a consultation?? There should be a vote of no confidence in this lot if it was possible?

[AlexandHelenC]

Jenijenjen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> heartblock Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > East Dulwich Grove and the houses were built as

> a

> > residential road for workers on the trains,

> nurses

> > and soldiers circa 1880 - 1886, it is a narrow

> > road with trees all along it and was not built

> as

> > a super-highway ?

>

> Take a look at this extract from an OS map

> surveyed in 1863. You will see that most of what

> is now called East Dulwich Grove is laid out and

> there are very few houses. Perhaps the section

> east of Green Lane (Greendale) was built in 1888

> but most of the road had already been built as a

> thoroughfare long before the houses. North Dulwich

> Station is at the bottom left hand corner.

Exactly. The argument that the (late 19th century)roads are ?taking the traffic that they were built for? is incomprehensibly stupid.