LTN: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3

[malumbu]

To try and bring a bit of balance there will always be some subjectivity in a consultation. Do you want to reduce pollution/address climate change (overwhelmingly "yes"). Are you prepared to be inconvenienced (overwhelmingly "no").

I'm not going to change the minds of the masses, but have avoided personal comment throughout this debate (but have been subject to many against me), so please respect my point of view even though very different to most.

Separately there is a lot of passion here, and at times I think that this could be directed towards much bigger issues - inequality, social justice, the environment (please add additional wider issues, we are living in challenging and volatile times geopolitically.

[Bicknell]

in case you missed this

https://www.onedulwich.uk/news/two-out-of-three-reject-the-dulwich-ltns

[heartblock]

So close to 70% rejection from responders to current road closures. Southwark designed this consultation, they even encouraged cycling lobby groups to reply and went out of their way to promote closed roads as a positive change with leaflets, posters and flinging money at the square of shame for nice events that wouldn?t frighten the nice neighbourhood............ even then the policy of gated communities has been rejected in their consultation.

Now they ignore it.

I wonder what the cost of the whole exercise was. If they were intending to ignore the results why spend ?our? council tax on it. I would rather a few more children got a free school meal with that money. What a waste.

[Rockets]

Oh my....Richard Leeming....very undignified responses on this thread.

[legalalien]

Various new minor road changes - think the only local one is some additional double yellows in Melbourne Grove.

https://moderngov.southwark.gov.uk/mgIssueHistoryHome.aspx?IId=50027372

[first mate]

And the sole purpose of this is to try to shoehorn in CPZ to MG South and get their ED-wide CPZ rollout underway again.

[Spartacus]

Rockets Wrote:

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> Oh my....Richard Leeming....very undignified

> responses on this thread.

>

> https://twitter.com/benedictevans/status/143772366

> 8734435333?s=19

Obviously he's read "how to make friends and influence your enemies" 😆

As a councillor he really should be held to account for his social media posts and actions as they, whilst on his account, do reflect on the council.

Wonder how he would feel if traffic was diverted to outside his home ?

[Joseph]

Dulwich LTN got a mention on LBC this morning too.

[Artemis]

I do feel Southwark Council should run a training session for councillors and advise them on how to communicate with their constituents. Imagine the council were a retailer and their management spoke to their customers as some of the councillors do. They would go out of business. I cannot comprehend how anyone who has chosen to enter public office could even conceive of openly insulting, belittling and attacking the very people who they are supposed to represent. I find it startling inappropriate. What about trying to win people round to their opinions through decency and courtesy while respecting the opposite views, and rising above any criticism they receive rather than resorting to childish bickering.

[Metallic]

Joseph Wrote:

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> Dulwich LTN got a mention on LBC this morning too.

What was said? Or what time -ish so I can listen to it.

[Joseph]

I had it on the background, it was on about 8:00am. It was a govt minister essentially saying councils should consult their area but it was a council / mayor issue rather than governmental.

[Metallic]

Joseph Wrote:

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> I had it on the background, it was on about

> 8:00am. It was a govt minister essentially saying

> councils should consult their area but it was a

> council / mayor issue rather than governmental.

Cheers. Southwark don't want to repay the money Shapps awarded, and they love their Penalty Charges Bank account. In with about a ?3 million balance. When I read this I just could not believe it. But all the councils taking LTNs out must be paying back, so I wonder if Penalty Charge Notices stand or whether they would have to refund all that too. I think it would be interesting to do a street by street breakdown of whgo has been fined. Just for information.

[AlexandHelenC]

The mentality of the protestors on the M25 is quite revealing. They freely admit that most people profoundly disagree with their methods but sincerely believe that they're on the side of the righteous and that history will judge them favourably.

I suspect that Southwark Councillors and officers have a similar outlook. It doesn't matter that the LTN policy has been resoundingly rejected by their constituents, nor that it is completely ineffective in achieving its stated goal of improving the environment. They see the impact on residents of the roads that have taken the displaced traffic as a fair price to pay to 'solve the climate emergency'. If (when?) the local councillors lose their seats next year, they'll feel like martyrs to a worthwhile cause. It's very difficult to reason with people that have such a mindset.

[Rockets]

And a bit like the M25 protestors the councillors have created more congestion and pollution in their quest to highlight congestion and pollution and supposedly try to solve the problem.

Both groups display a blinkered, narcissistic attitude without any empathy for anything other than their own cause.

[Rockets]

Interesting to see a plethora of "cycling increased massively in 2020" noise at the moment from the cycle lobby's usual suspects - interesting timing given lots of councils are reviewing their LTN strategies. Those lobbyists seem less keen to discuss what has happened to cycling in 2021 which is now well below the 5 year rolling average.

It seems the cycling uplift and the modal shift that so many harped on about was an uptick built solely on the period of the first major lockdown and has now completely evaporated.

[malumbu]

Rockets Wrote:

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> And a bit like the M25 protestors the councillors have created more congestion and pollution in their quest to highlight congestion and pollution and supposedly try to solve the problem.

>

> Both groups display a blinkered, narcissistic attitude without any empathy for anything other than their own cause.

Well I believe in both causes - reducing transport emissions and reducing emissions from our antiquated housing stock by improved insulation. Not the means for insulate, and I will let the rest of you discuss Southwark's means as my principle view is there has to be some pain for motorists.

Roll on COP 26.

We could do with some more threads on LTNs though....

[redpost]

Rockets Wrote:

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> And a bit like the M25 protestors the councillors

> have created more congestion and pollution in

> their quest to highlight congestion and pollution

> and supposedly try to solve the problem.

>

> Both groups display a blinkered, narcissistic

> attitude without any empathy for anything other

> than their own cause.

Non-drivers protesting by blocking roads (climate protests) = BAD

Drivers protesting by blocking roads (fuel duty protests of 2000) = GOOD

[Rockets]

I saw that the same tactics were used in Munich a few weeks ago around what used to be the Frankfurt Motor Show (which is now in Munich). Protestors blockaded all of the motorways and roads around Munich to protest at the motor show coming to the city and they caused utter chaos but someone pointed out to them that there was not a single petrol or diesel car launched at the show - everything was electric.

I didn't realise Insulate Britain are campaigning for better insulation of homes - a worthy cause as that is it is all a bit fringe and to do what they have been doing is all a bit lunatic fringe - is this a splinter group from XR? ;-) Were they not happy that XR weren't focussed enough on homes leaking energy.....my goodness me...

[redpost]

Electric cars are not a pancea, there will still be 300+ child road deaths a year electric or not

We will still have the highest obesity stats in europe

There will still be particulates from tyres, brake pads etc

[DulwichCentral]

Rockets Wrote:

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> I saw that the same tactics were used in Munich a

> few weeks ago around what used to be the Frankfurt

> Motor Show (which is now in Munich). Protestors

> blockaded all of the motorways and roads around

> Munich to protest at the motor show coming to the

> city and they caused utter chaos but someone

> pointed out to them that there was not a single

> petrol or diesel car launched at the show -

> everything was electric.

But even so...

If all new cars sold were electric, it would still take 15-20 years to replace the world?s fossil fuel car fleet.

https://www.research.ox.ac.uk/article/2021-06-14-obsessing-over-electric-cars-is-impeding-the-race-to-net-zero-more-active-travel-is-essential

and...

'Let's be conservative and say that on average a charger will suck 5kW of power, which would still take hours to recharge an average car. Scale that up to 35 million cars and we will need additional 18GW of power to supply them all.

A brand spanking new nuclear power station that is being built is Hinkley at a price of $26,5 billion will produce only 3.2GW once it's opened in 2025. The UK alone would need seven Hinkley nuclear power stations to meet their EV power demand.

https://drivetribe.com/p/if-all-cars-were-electric-how-many-DfGKxKl2Sp6CUGsxOAWepg?iid=RicDdg4LQSmZQIp4j8Anpw

and...

'Electric car push puts front gardens in peril, Sacrificing grass and flowers to build chargepoints is ?paving the way to disaster? The Times

[Abe_froeman]

Fine let a ban all vehicles except for bicycles. I'm convinced.

Close all of the roads. All of them .

[Rockets]

But this is the point isn't it - people need to get around in vehicles. Electric cars reduce pollution and measures like LTNs are, ostensibly, designed to reduce pollution - for every electric car that replaces a petrol or diesel car there is a reduction in pollution. Surely that and the fact that all manufacturers are switching exclusively to electric is a good thing, is it not? Buses, taxis and delivery vehicles are all turning electric - electric seems to be the clear way forward.

The car industry is slow to change but it is changing. They design cars 3-5 years ahead of going on sale so the pace of change is slower than people would like. But, it is changing, but it seems for some it is not enough.

You mention nuclear power stations - it wasn't that long ago that people were protesting about having nuclear power and you can guarantee that some of those people are now protesting about the impacts of climate change. Sometimes you just have to put pragmatism ahead of idealism.

Speaking of which...

When I watched this piece of performance art from the spokesperson for Insulate Britain I saw so many parallels with the unwavering fanaticism displayed by many around LTNs - we're right, you're wrong, we don't care about what you think or the negative consequences of our actions, this is our righteous path and we will not deviate from it (let me also be clear that the GMB presenters don't cover themselves in glory here either) but this spokesperson, who laughably hasn't insulated his own home, does his cause not good but will no doubt be idolised by his supporters:

[redpost]

Rockets Wrote:

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> But this is the point isn't it - people need to

> get around in vehicles. Electric cars reduce

> pollution and measures like LTNs are, ostensibly,

> designed to reduce pollution - for every electric

> car that replaces a petrol or diesel car there is

> a reduction in pollution. Surely that and the fact

> that all manufacturers are switching exclusively

> to electric is a good thing, is it not? Buses,

> taxis and delivery vehicles are all turning

> electric - electric seems to be the clear way

> forward.

>

> The car industry is slow to change but it is

> changing. They design cars 3-5 years ahead of

> going on sale so the pace of change is slower than

> people would like. But, it is changing, but it

> seems for some it is not enough.

>

> You mention nuclear power stations - it wasn't

> that long ago that people were protesting about

> having nuclear power and you can guarantee that

> some of those people are now protesting about the

> impacts of climate change. Sometimes you just have

> to put pragmatism ahead of idealism.

>

> Speaking of which...

>

> When I watched this piece of performance art from

> the spokesperson for Insulate Britain I saw so

> many parallels with the unwavering fanaticism

> displayed by many around LTNs - we're right,

> you're wrong, we don't care about what you think

> or the negative consequences of our actions, this

> is our righteous path and we will not deviate from

> it (let me also be clear that the GMB presenters

> don't cover themselves in glory here either) but

> this spokesperson, who laughably hasn't insulated

> his own home, does his cause not good but will no

> doubt be idolised by his supporters:

>

Would you class the fuel protestors of 2000 fanatics?

After all, they put lives and livelihoods at severe risk by blockading fuel depots and refineries

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

Rockets Wrote:

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> someone

> pointed out to them that there was not a single

> petrol or diesel car launched at the show -

> everything was electric.

Too bad that "someone" was talking complete cobblers. It's just not true that there wasn't a single petrol or diesel car at the show, even if most new cars were electric or at least hybrid. Why do people just make stuff up?

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motor-shows-munich-motor-show/munich-motor-show-2021-full-report-and-gallery

[first mate]

I thought Rockets qualified his statement by saying not a single petrol or diesel car "launched".

Is it the case petrol and diesel cars were launched? You've just referred to cars "at" the show...not the same thing.

Anyhow, I guess the point is it may be more accurate to say the majority of cars were electric. I don't know, I wasn't there and do not follow car events, but to incorrectly quote Rockets and then on that basis accuse him of talking cobblers is a bit much.