LTN: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3

[Earl Aelfheah]

They weren?t. And some had their bags between the barriers, blocking access. But sure I have been on this forum since 2007 because I actually live in Scotland.

[legalalien]

RRR maybe pick your battles on this? I saw the protest while walking the dog and there was no major issue re blocking right turning traffic into Calton - people were mostly on the pavement, more so than the usual overspill from cyclists visiting Au Ciel. The whole area is messy and confusing at present given the combo of street furniture / random cultural events / cyclists, pedestrians, ill phased lights, construction traffic - anyone visually impaired or with hearing difficulties would be well advised to stay well away, and everyone else should keep their wits about them. Do you know something everyone else doesn?t when you suggest the junction will soon be full of cars again?

[Earl Aelfheah]

You can see on this one as well that they were not only on the pavement. Anyone who went passed and is honest, will tell you that they absolutely were blocking people trying to turn off the main road. But again, the photos are probably faked (even though they have been posted by those protesting), just like the data is faked and the academic research is biased. The only truth is that more cars, on more roads is the only way to reduce the number of cars and encourage kids to use their bikes.

[legalalien]

Seriously?

Presumably I?m in the dishonest camp. Not really sure what to say, other than that the concrete blocks in the photo don?t mark the edge of the pavement, for any non-locals tuning in.

This is getting out of hand.

[Earl Aelfheah]

I was cycling with my two young daughters (who I would never have cycled through that junction with before the LTN by the way, but which is now full of young families on bikes). We tried to turn right off the main road and people had piled their bags between the barriers and several were also standing their blocking any route through. This was a bit later on and things had cleared out a bit, but it was dangerous as we had to dismount in the road (the main road). I didn?t appreciate it thanks. But I?m sure I?m just a troll, making things up and who doesn?t live here, right?

And yes, people encouraging cars to honk their horns in support of ?young lungs? is absurd. How those involved can?t see it is personally beyond me.

If anyone thinks that having more cars cutting through side roads is going to help children stay active I think they?re quite, quite wrong.

[Earl Aelfheah]

legalalien Wrote:

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> Seriously?

>

> Presumably I?m in the dishonest camp. Not really

> sure what to say, other than that the concrete

> blocks in the photo don?t mark the edge of the

> pavement, for any non-locals tuning in.

>

> This is getting out of hand.

I?m not suggesting people were standing in the road. I?m suggesting (and the photos show) that they were blocking access from the road into the ?square?. Are you honestly saying that they were only standing to the side, on the pavement and that they weren?t on the square facing the main road waving their placards?

[march46]

They weren't all on the pavement. As with the last One Dulwich protest, they tried to get car drivers to honk their support whilst at the same time disingenuously feign concern about air pollution.

https://imgur.com/a/OYKf48s (edited to add photo)

[legalalien]

Ok so the photo doesn?t show what you said it did. And you disagree with people?s views, and think they are absurd - you?re perfectly entitled to have an opinion and so are they.

The recent closures for events and demonstrations in favour of the closure have caused just the same issues for right turning traffic, assuming you are correct about bags / blockages - I have no idea if you are factually correct or live locally. As a regular pedestrian I am fed up with the shemozzle caused by the current configuration, so I sympathise.

[dougiefreeman]

Think you?re fighting a losing one here rahrahrah. Would it not just have been easier to roll back the initial insult you made rather than continue heating this up?

Regardless of whether people left a few bags on the ground, publicly labelling them all as idiots isn?t going to make you any friends and IMO just serves to weaken your argument.

[legalalien]

There is no ?square? separate from the road as far as I am aware?

What?s wrong with trying to get drivers to honk support? Or having placards that face the road?

Their ?disingenuousness? is a matter of opinion?

I?m not involved with this protest but I feel as though the culture wars / cancel culture has come to town, and it worries me.

[Earl Aelfheah]

It shows that they were not only on the pavement as claimed above, and as I said.

I do live locally. The fact that this can?t be taken at face value despite the fact that I?ve been on this forum since 2007 shows how absurd this whole thread has became.

People concerned for young lungs might want to consider whether campaigning to allow cars to cut through side roads, encouraging honks of support from passing SUVs and blocking kids out on their bikes from turning off the main road is smart.

[northernmonkey]

I?m not commenting on the protest itself, my view is that people should have a right to put their views forward and they won?t always be ones I agree with.

However, on the question as to whether this protest obstructed the road and made it difficult for those trying to pass through the square coming from dulwich village (the road) then the photo posted by March above shows clearly that the protest did expand out with people standing between the planters in the square. This would have meant that it was more difficult to cycle through. It?s not opinion, it?s just factually the case with a photo to prove it

[malumbu]

legalalien Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Seriously?

>

> Presumably I?m in the dishonest camp. Not really

> sure what to say, other than that the concrete

> blocks in the photo don?t mark the edge of the

> pavement, for any non-locals tuning in.

>

> This is getting out of hand.

Getting out of hand? You mean over 6000 posts, the challenges of having a rational discussion without people going off on one, throwing round the "T" word and the like.

Sorry I've just added another unnecessary post, maybe I am 'T'ing myself.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Btw, I?m not suggesting everyone there was an idiot. But those blocking people from turning off the main road (with is dangerous), are. Thats why I said ?a small number of idiots, blocking those trying to turn right?.

That said I do think the protestors are quite wrong if they think the answer to having healthy, active kids is to have more cars on more roads.

[march46]

Love seeing the positive images put out by Clean Air Dulwich. So many people are benefitting from the roads being safer.

[legalalien]

It?s a two way argument though, isn?t it? The contra argument is that those concerned for young lungs might want to consider whether campaigning to channel all traffic onto main roads, so that less fortunate children who have to walk to schools on those main roads, is smart. Phrasing the argument in that kind of tone helps no one.

We need proper data, and then a grown up debate that admits that any policy decision has winners and losers, and ideally some consensus on how much ?loss? for individuals is or isn?t acceptable, with suitable mitigation strategies.

And so to bed...

[Earl Aelfheah]

Just to remind you what I actually said, it was this:

?a small number of idiots blocking the right turn for cyclists with their bags and placards.?

I stand by my view that if you leave a kid stuck out in the main road because you?re blocking their turn, you?re an idiot.

[slarti b2]

rarah,

You said this in response to a posting about an anti LTN protest at the Calton Avenue Road closure ?a small number of idiots blocking the right turn for cyclists with their bags and placards.?

Would you have said the same about the sparsely attended propaganda events organsied by the "friends of Dulwich Square" and funded by council tax payers?

[Earl Aelfheah]

As far as I?m aware attendees at those events didn?t put bags or stand protesters in between the planters, blocking people from turning off the main road, leaving them stuck out in traffic on their bikes. I have no problem with people being in the square. I have a problem with thoughtless behaviour which endangers others.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Just noticed the comment about ?cancel culture? 😂

[tiddles]

Wasn?t there some sort of ?fair? there recently with people dancing in the square - pretty sore they were blocking access for cyclists - who no doubt had to weave between the musicians and odd couples twirling about - are they idiots too?

[Earl Aelfheah]

There is no problem with people hanging out in the square. It is shared space.

This is not the same as people blocking the exit off the main road, onto the square.

If you?re cycling up Dulwich Village Road, you wait in the middle, between two lanes of traffic, in order to turn right. You have cars passing you on both sides going in different directions. If people stand in between the barriers and place their bags in the gaps blocking your turn, they leave you stranded in this position (whilst in this instance, also encouraging car and van drivers to loudly sound their horns as they pass).

Leaving a kid stuck out in the middle of a main road and blocking their safe exit, isn?t really something people ought to defend imo.

[Bicknell]

still confused @rahrahrah

photos show people standing around the red concret bollards on the pvaement. they were put there to stop cars mounting the pavement.

agree that we need safe cycling for families with cycle lanes

but disagree thta junction should be closed 24/7

that just moves traffic on to other roads so that cycling isnt safe for other children

[first mate]

It was a protest, it is generally accepted that protests may cause inconvenience to others. Look at the M25.

It is interesting RRR and others get on their high horses about the temporary effects of one protest by the elderly and disabled who are negatively affected by LTN changes. At the same time they are intensely relaxed and 'okay' about increasing traffic on other roads because the ends justifies the means- including perhaps the sacrifice of some children's lungs.

[northernmonkey]

Look at the image posted by March. Shows in road between planters, rather than pavement between bollards

Bicknell Wrote:

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> still confused @rahrahrah

> photos show people standing around the red concret

> bollards on the pvaement. they were put there to

> stop cars mounting the pavement.

> agree that we need safe cycling for families with

> cycle lanes

> but disagree thta junction should be closed 24/7

> that just moves traffic on to other roads so that

> cycling isnt safe for other children