LTN: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3

[Rockets]

My family walked to Herne Hill station yesterday and we wandered past the Party in the Square (whatever it is called) and this image really brought home to me the madness of these closures. A picture speaks a thousand words and all that....

[heartblock]

That picture of the jolly in the square of shame next to nearly quarter of a mile of idling traffic on a residential/school road reminds me of ?Playing the fiddle while Rome burns?

[heartblock]

If you dig down into the TFL raw data, the big increases in cycling were at the weekend, from their very few data collecting sites [25 mostly in inner London) 100% increase etc.

Weekdays the increase was around 14% comparing to numbers in 2019.

Since Autumn 2020 the weekday numbers have started to drop by around 10% compared to 2019, but weekends remain high.

So not changing from cars to bikes for commuting during the week in comparison to 2019 and no justification for increasing traffic by 25-36% and slowing buses on ED Grove, or causing chaos and pollution on Croxted.

[ab29]

"The Labour square of shame" it should say I think.

I used to go to Dulwich Village all the time - not anymore. The closed roads and those b****y planters are symbols of sheer injustice to me and so I stopped going there altogether.

My elderly neighbour told me that unless she manages her walk first thing in the morning she doesn?t go outside at all these days. Increase in traffic, cyclists, skaters, electric bikes and so on - there is no space for someone who simply wants to walk anymore.

Southwark council is obsessed with cycling ? why not encourage people to walk more to start with? It?s cheap and pretty much everyone can do it. A cynic in me (who has grown to monumental proportions during the LTN shambles) tells me there is no money to be made in walking: no gear & gear repairs needed, no fancy tights, helmets etc to sell - so why would councillours and their friends & family bother with walking?

There is nothing Southwark Council did to encourage walking. I was on my way to Cancer Centre via Newcomen Rd the other day ? as you get closer, the pavements are so narrow, uneven and damaged that an able person needs to pay attention not to trip over; people in wheelchair or elderly have no chance. At the same time the cycle lane is all nice and smooth (of course). Hundreds of examples like this across the borough.

There is nothing the local labour councillors Andy Simmons and Catherine Rose did to encourage walking or in fact to help the local people in any way. E.g we have been asking for years to change the pedestrian lights around Wood Vale ? it takes 5-7 minutes to cross both parts of the road and while waiting, you are stuck with fumes, dirt and noise. Nothing has been done to change this.

We need a real information campaign before the next local election so detached from reality lunatics like Richard Leeming are voted out.

[Nigello]

Agreed that walking (or using a wheelchair) is underserved. Very little is done to improve walking routes - jud5blook at how puddles form because drains aren?t cleaned and ponding develops on cracked pavements (already a hazard when dry) or at drooped kerbs. Households are not asked to trim bushes and branches - especially bad for blind or disable? people - and trees? limbs are left to grow as low as the height of an adult. Yes, this would cost a bit to address but it?s not with-it and the stuff of ad campaigns.

If you?re not keeping your bins off the street and your privets, etc. tamed, then please do so because it?s your responsibility as much as mine to keep pavements in good shape for pedestrians and wheelchair users.

[northernmonkey]

Whilst I agree that there is much more that should be done to enhance walking within the borough, including getting wheelie bins off the streets, replacing uneven pavements, enforcing no parking on dropped kerbs to ensure accessibility, widening pavements at pinch points where possible, taking action where hedges overgrow the footpath etc, I also don't think its fair to say nothing has been done to enhance walking.

Thinking about local schemes, the pavement on Calton by the building site is really very narrow. It used to be that 2 people would struggle to pass but they had to stay on the tiny stretch as cars dominated the rest of the road and it was really unsafe. Now its much enhanced for pedestrians. Similarly, the crossing at the bottom of Calton next to Dulwich Village used to be a phased crossing forcing pedestrians to wait for 2 separate signals with a refuge in the middle of 3 or 4 lanes of traffic. Again much improved. I also often see people walking in the road on the filtered streets around East Dulwich Station rather than having to stick to the pavements full of wheelie bins.

I do agree that the fact there is no pedestrian phase at the L Lane / South Circular junction is ridiculous though!

[Bicknell]

@northernmonkey

dont agree that closed DV junction much impropved. not good before - council should never hve brought in phased crossing in 2017. but now many older people dont feel safe because cyclists and pedestrains mixed up.

[northernmonkey]

I think thats a perception that One Dulwich are pushing and may be true for some people, but similarly know lots of older people who find it much improved. These issues aren't black and white.

[alice]

Older people had a zoom meeting with the council in these changes and the large majority spoke of the negative impact on their lives. So not sure where u got your info from.

[northernmonkey]

A small selection of older people who were incentivised to join a council call made a number of claims. I totally agree they are real concerns for those people. This doesn't mean its a real concern for all older people - or indeed that they're representative. The concerns need to be considered, assessed and if adjustments need to be made they should be. That doesn't mean that all comments made apply to all older people.

[alice]

?Incentivised? how. And %wise it wasn?t small more like 75%

[northernmonkey]

Its a small amount of people over 65 in the area - not of people incentivised (by their own dislike of the measures) to attend. Its standard that in any consultation process or feedback that there is a skew towards those who are dissatisfied. Look at trip advisor!

[Abe_froeman]

Not this consultation though. The cycling lobby have put in vast amount of effort to get people from all over London and elsewhere to respond to this consultation favourably. They have gone to great lengths to skew the results their way.

Rather farcically someone even managed to get the consultation extended to school children, who were being lectured at in school by pro-LTN campaigners

[northernmonkey]

Is that so - or is it that the "one" groups are actually at least a partially organised network with weekly calls between them to share insights across areas?

[Metallic]

northernmonkey Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I think thats a perception that One Dulwich are

> pushing and may be true for some people, but

> similarly know lots of older people who find it

> much improved. These issues aren't black and

> white.

You and your anecdotes.

Just waited for a cyclist as there was space to cross after him. He tutted at me then proceeded through the red light which was on green for pedestrians, and rode in to Calton Ave/Court Lane.

[Metallic]

northernmonkey Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> A small selection of older people who were

> incentivised to join a council call made a number

> of claims. I totally agree they are real concerns

> for those people. This doesn't mean its a real

> concern for all older people - or indeed that

> they're representative. The concerns need to be

> considered, assessed and if adjustments need to be

> made they should be. That doesn't mean that all

> comments made apply to all older people.

You are so patronising.

[DuncanW]

What should we glean from that in relation to LTNs?

Metallic Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> northernmonkey Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I think thats a perception that One Dulwich are

> > pushing and may be true for some people, but

> > similarly know lots of older people who find it

> > much improved. These issues aren't black and

> > white.

>

> You and your anecdotes.

> Just waited for a cyclist as there was space to

> cross after him. He tutted at me then proceeded

> through the red light which was on green for

> pedestrians, and rode in to Calton Ave/Court Lane.

[alice]

So what was the point of the council setting up this focus group?

[northernmonkey]

And you are spectacularly rude, but it doesn?t really progress the discussion anywhere does it.

Metallic Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> northernmonkey Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > A small selection of older people who were

> > incentivised to join a council call made a

> number

> > of claims. I totally agree they are real

> concerns

> > for those people. This doesn't mean its a real

> > concern for all older people - or indeed that

> > they're representative. The concerns need to be

> > considered, assessed and if adjustments need to

> be

> > made they should be. That doesn't mean that

> all

> > comments made apply to all older people.

> You are so patronising.

[DulwichCentral]

So anyone who doesn't agree with the mob on here now just get blatantly insulted. It's a sign of weakness.

[first mate]

I think calling posters that disagree with you a 'mob' is possibly just as rude/insulting as calling another poster 'patronising'. Pots and kettles!

[Metallic]

DuncanW Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> What should we glean from that in relation to

> LTNs?

>

>

> Metallic Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > northernmonkey Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > I think thats a perception that One Dulwich

> are

> > > pushing and may be true for some people, but

> > > similarly know lots of older people who find

> it

> > > much improved. These issues aren't black and

> > > white.

> >

> > You and your anecdotes.

> > Just waited for a cyclist as there was space to

> > cross after him. He tutted at me then

> proceeded

> > through the red light which was on green for

> > pedestrians, and rode in to Calton Ave/Court

> Lane.

All these posts are anecdotal. No one has any data. or proof of anything, however when the cyclist went through the lights on green for pedestrians, fortunately I was with someone else who saw the blatant disregard for law.

[malumbu]

My word First Mate, we seem to be on the same page. I hope you didn't call me patronising, but I know others did, after a very careful factual post I made a few weeks ago. Perhaps reread your response at the time.

I'm not sure what the point about a cyclist misbehaving is or whether it is better of worse that the road rage I have experienced in the past both as a pedestrian or cyclist. The thread moves on so quickly.

Sorry I have not added any substance on this occasion.

OK, back off to the Lounge to discuss cricket and music.

[DuncanW]

All what posts?

I understand that you saw a cyclist jump the lights. I'm not doubting the veracity of that. I just don't quite get what we're supposed to learn from that in relation to LTNs... maybe you could explain?

[Earl Aelfheah]

It?s not just anecdote. Southwark have published data. Lambeth have just published more, follow up data on their LTNs. Many other boroughs have too. There is a body of research and a number of papers in peer reviewed journals which look at the impacts of LTNs. They all show the same thing - that by restricting car movements, you generally reduce car use and increase active travel.

It is all rubbished of course. No counter evidence offered. Some have even argued on this thread that we shouldn?t look or ask for such evidence. So what you going to do?

When you have people saying that they?ll strongly oppose anything that makes driving more difficult, I find it very hard to believe that any amount of data will make the slightest difference.