LTN: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3

[Nigello]

Much more pressure needs to be put on the schools - state and private - whose huge number of pupils means that there are above average road trips in this 2 or 3 square mile area. Nobody can deny that traffic is always less dense by at least 10 percent (I am being conservative) during school holidays. Why not demand that the schools do more to effect positive change, such as more perks for staff and or parents who don't drive there and back? Crude but effective, even if it means some will feel "disempowered" or victimised or some such...

[first mate]

Agree with you Nigello.

[Earl Aelfheah]

heartblock Wrote:

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> So Dulwich has a PTAL of 1 - Very Poor, so why

> LTNs were introduced..is a mystery to me...well

> actually not a mystery as we know the real reasons

> LTNs went in, but anyway this score is based on.

>

> ? Walking time from the point-of interest to the

> public transport access points;

> ? The reliability of the service modes available;

> ? The number of services available within the

> catchment; and

> ? The level of service at the public transport

> access points - i.e. average waiting time.

> And Dulwich scores the lowest possible on PTAL.

So are you suggesting that car use in this area should not be discouraged until such time as we see significant improvements to public transport? Because at the moment people are claiming they want fewer cars and more active travel, but that they also want it to be easier to drive to the shops and that cycling isn?t going to help with congestion. Abe is clear that in his opinion people will oppose any restrictions on car use. What?s your view on this? Do you think there should be attempts to restrict or reduce car use?

[first mate]

Aside from those with mobility issues, who has said they want it to be easier to drive to the shops?

[Abe_froeman]

"Sealioning is a type of trolling or harassment that consists of pursuing people with persistent requests for evidence or repeated questions, while maintaining a pretense of civility and sincerity. It may take the form of "incessant, bad-faith invitations to engage in debate".

Sealioning thus works both to exhaust a target's patience, attention, and communicative effort, and to portray the target as unreasonable. While the questions of the "sea lion" may seem innocent, they're intended maliciously and have harmful consequences."

[Rockets]

Nigello Wrote:

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> Much more pressure needs to be put on the schools

> - state and private - whose huge number of pupils

> means that there are above average road trips in

> this 2 or 3 square mile area. Nobody can deny that

> traffic is always less dense by at least 10

> percent (I am being conservative) during school

> holidays. Why not demand that the schools do more

> to effect positive change, such as more perks for

> staff and or parents who don't drive there and

> back? Crude but effective, even if it means some

> will feel "disempowered" or victimised or some

> such...

Nigello - spot on. But unfortunately such a sensible approach doesn't lead to more funding for cycle projects so the cycle lobby won't get behind it.

[heartblock]

It's best not to reply to persistent requests for evidence or repeated questions, it only encourages.

The schools definitely need a rethink, USA style school buses come to mind, but not sure how that would work for the private schools.

[Earl Aelfheah]

It?s unreasonable to ask someone to clarify their position on a public discussion forum. Got it.

[Earl Aelfheah]

first mate Wrote:

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> Aside from those with mobility issues, who has

> said they want it to be easier to drive to the

> shops?

It was suggested that because the restrictions are making it more difficult to drive to Dulwich Village the shops are suffering and businesses are failing. Just read up the thread a little.

[Earl Aelfheah]

It's best not to reply to requests for evidence or respond to questions. Just make unsubstantiated assertions, contradictory statements and call people names.

This isn?t a discussion forum.

[first mate]

Okay, to get back to the discussion, a number of posters do seem to agree that the school run is possibly a major contributor to congestion at times. Has "One Dulwich" or any other group come up with some useful suggestions? Does anyone know if Southwark Council have tried to do anything meaningful with schools and parents?

[BrandNewGuy]

Based on the experience of living very near Alleyns and JAGs until a couple of years ago, the schools pay lip service to local concerns about parking and traffic and simply do what they want to do. I've no reason to think that will change. What could the council do?

[heartblock]

It is difficult to know what they could do, especially as now any buses travelling down ED Grove during the school run are delayed by about 20 mins on top of what was a slow bus journey before the LTNs.

That is where maybe the American style school bus could help? Closing 5 roads just off EDG has made what was traffic, but moving traffic now just an idling nightmare, they obviously didn't factor in the schools and health centre.

Maybe EDG is closed to all private cars that are not registered as belonging to residents between 8:00 and 9:00am on school days? So only buses, school buses, registers disabled and commercial vehicles allowed, but that would only push cars onto my neighbours roads on LL and Grove Vale...and I wouldn't want to add to their misery - roads already impacted by LTNs on the non-school roads of Calton, Court, Derwent, Melbourne (the non-school side) etc.

[smooch]

Lordship lane businesses suffer as the traffic is so static it makes it difficult to pull over, park and purchase goods (frequently as part of a longer journey)

Dulwich suffers as cars are no longer able to drive thru, and purchase stuff as part of their journey.

I often would drive thru the village (on the way to visit clients, carrying too much stuff to have on a bike) but I no longer go there.

Would love to know how the area managed when the top of lordship lane, turning onto the south cirular coped today with the road closures - what was the alternative route offered? and what on earth was the result if an ambulance needed to get thru?

[alice]

EDG for buses and bikes

Calton/ court for cars

How would that be?

[legalalien]

There was a lot of extra traffic northbound on Dulwich Village yesterday (stationary along the stretch between the two traffic lights) so I guess a fair bit of the traffic was diverted that way. Fortunately school holidays so the schools were closed.

[Metallic]

Even if councillors have spoken to businesses it doesn't mean that the quality of the exchange is any use at all. I doubt it was.

By the way. Be prepared for the great "we are not going to change anything except for allowing emergency vehicles through the closed junction" announcement.

[andynic]

first mate Wrote:

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> Okay, to get back to the discussion, a number of

> posters do seem to agree that the school run is

> possibly a major contributor to congestion at

> times. Has "One Dulwich" or any other group come

> up with some useful suggestions? Does anyone know

> if Southwark Council have tried to do anything

> meaningful with schools and parents?

Not sure that really fits with the ?One Dulwich? raison d?etre, which is to allow people to drive wherever they like while professing a love of clean air.

[heartblock]

I?m not sure what ?allow people to drive wherever they like? means. Cars are driven legally on open roads, I also don?t know what driving on one road as oppose to another has to do with overall pollution levels.

There is no actual collected raw data that show or evidence that LTNs reduce pollution. In fact there is empirical evidence that LTNs have caused excessive idling traffic on ED Grove and Croxted Rd, with additional measured data from Southwark council of at least a 25% increase in traffic on ED Grove - and scientific data that proves idling traffic causes more particulate and NOx pollution than moving traffic.

So again, why and how does a car journey on Melbourne or Calton cause less clean air than making a longer journey with more periods of idling via Croxted or ED Grove? Which incidentally have far more residents than Calton or Gilkes for example, due to higher density housing?

Edited to correct quote..Soz.

[Rockets]

Metallic Wrote:

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> Even if councillors have spoken to businesses it

> doesn't mean that the quality of the exchange is

> any use at all. I doubt it was.

>

> By the way. Be prepared for the great "we are not

> going to change anything except for allowing

> emergency vehicles through the closed junction"

> announcement.

It's getting ugly now....

[Glemham]

The traffic situation on roads in and around the impermeable Dulwich Village junction is about to get very interesting. The new owners of the old SG Smith site in the middle of the Village have given the Dulwich Society notice of their intention to start work on September 6, the first day of the new school term for many local children. Aquinna Homes are to develop the site for 10 large family homes and 2 apartments complete with underground car parking.

This raises some interesting points:

1. Southwark Council has presumably agreed a Construction Management Plan with the developers. Where will all the construction traffic, which for a start will involve removing huge amounts of earth for the underground parking, access the site and where will it be parked? In Gilkes Crescent, ?Dulwich Square?, Calton Avenue?..?

2. How will the CMP give protection to all the schoolchildren, pedestrians, residents and cyclists who will be using the pavements and roads immediately adjacent to the site every day?

3. Why is Southwark Council, by presumably agreeing to the car parking, encouraging car ownership when its avowed policy is to discourage residents from using or indeed owning a car?

The Dulwich Estate sold this site four years ago for ?5.25 million at a time when the Trustees were looking for a replacement site for their Almshouses. They should have built new flats for their residents and local people wanting to downsize to an affordable home. Most of the proceeds from the sale went to three of their beneficiaries: the already wealthy independent schools.

[Metallic]

Thank you Glemham for that bit of news. So that means big lorries taking soul out and delivering construction materials, what a great Winter we can all look forward to. And will they be allowed to "go through the cameras" or are they to be restricted to five hours a day, as construction cannot be pre-8am or after 5.30pm.

Has anyone heard from any official about how these lorries ware going to get to the building site?

[johnhinton]

So many souls being dragged away by big lorries; no wonder my heart sinks when I see them.

[Abe_froeman]

Very helpful P3 Girl. If the council had a conscience they would revoke every fine they have issued at that junction.

[Metallic]

johnhinton Wrote:

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> So many souls being dragged away by big lorries;

> no wonder my heart sinks when I see them.

How awful. I make a typo and you make fun but do you know what? Living with extra construction traffic every day wherever it ends up going - even up my road, will be soul-destroying.