LTN: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3

[RoundTable]

The LTNs are not about making things easier. It's about creating rural-like villages in pretty areas and using the 'on yer bike' as an excuse. Otherwise, they would have looked at existing public transport and accessibility options FIRST, then upgrade them where required, and THEN implement the LTNs.

But instead we've had the 'let's take away the scaffolding before we've attached the safety harness on' approach ['Oops, we don't have a safety harness. Nevermind, just say that it is a new novel invisible safety harness, and when the body is found splatted on the ground, we'll tell them they are looking in the wrong direction'].

[Lebanums]

Abe_froeman Wrote:

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> Lebanums putting on lots more buses would also

> make it less convenient to drive and courage modal

> shift from cars to public transport.

>

> But for some reason the council only seem to care

> about implementing the Tory' s plans to force

> everyone to cycle.

Whilst also not giving bike theft any attention *sigh*

[RoundTable]

Abe_froeman Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Lebanums putting on lots more buses would also

> make it less convenient to drive and courage modal

> shift from cars to public transport.

>

> But for some reason the council only seem to care

> about implementing the Tory' s plans to force

> everyone to cycle.

To be honest, whilst I agree, already you see the Walworth road jammed with 17 buses forming an orderly queue waiting for the first one to move on from the bus stop.

Narrow single track lanes with bus stops every 20m = a traffic jam of buses waiting to open their doors at the said bus stop. And stationary traffic is much more polluting than free-flowing traffic.

How to resolve this? Dunno, I'm not an urban designer, but simply adding a ton more buses without doing anything to 10th-century road design does not seem like a solution to me. Just take a look at the traffic mess on the 19th century Blackwall tunnel operating in the 21st century. What was designed for the width of a cart is still being used.

[Spartacus]

RoundTable Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Abe_froeman Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Lebanums putting on lots more buses would also

> > make it less convenient to drive and courage

> modal

> > shift from cars to public transport.

> >

> > But for some reason the council only seem to

> care

> > about implementing the Tory' s plans to force

> > everyone to cycle.

>

>

> To be honest, whilst I agree, already you see the

> Walworth road jammed with 17 buses forming an

> orderly queue waiting for the first one to move on

> from the bus stop.

>

> Narrow single track lanes with bus stops every 20m

> = a traffic jam of buses waiting to open their

> doors at the said bus stop. And stationary traffic

> is much more polluting than free-flowing traffic.

>

> How to resolve this? Dunno, I'm not an urban

> designer, but simply adding a ton more buses

> without doing anything to 10th-century road design

> does not seem like a solution to me. Just take a

> look at the traffic mess on the 19th century

> Blackwall tunnel operating in the 21st century.

> What was designed for the width of a cart is still

> being used.

Ah the joys of a highway engineers design to reduce traffic on the Walworth Road (narrowing the road to make it harder to drive along) has apparently backfired as it causes bus congestion.

Guess the real solution here is to return the road back to full width again which gives buses the ability to pass each other. Then focus on bolder public transport projects.

But then the highway engineers will argue that it gives access to car drivers ...

Why oh why were we so short sighted in years gone by and got rid of electric trams and replaced them with Diesel buses and didn't invest in public transport when we should have rather than pushing the car dream , because if we did this, this whole debate and LTNs wouldn't exist.

But then what would we do to amuse ourselves ?

[DulwichCentral]

I just called The Mobility Trust to get their take on this. The person I spoke to was shocked and mystified to hear that I had been rudely insulted and accused of being 'appallingly offensive' for suggesting that mobility scooters might be an option for some people. She said for some people a mobility scooter is the perfect solution.

Take a look at the testimonials on their website:

https://mobilitytrust.org.uk/

[heartblock]

I would be very interested in all these local people driving less than a mile in Dulwich and East Dulwich pre the closure of roads, what is the data? How many a year? Can someone direct me?

And data please, not modelling.

[Spartacus]

DulwichCentral Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I just called The Mobility Trust to get their take

> on this. The person I spoke to was shocked and

> mystified to hear that I had been rudely insulted

> and accused of being 'appallingly offensive' for

> suggesting that mobility scooters might be an

> option for some people. She said for some people a

> mobility scooter is the perfect solution.

>

> Take a look at the testimonials on their website:

> https://mobilitytrust.org.uk/

Guess you must be thicker skinned then anyone knew if you can't see how your comments are able bodiedist and insulting to the wider disabled community

Do me a favour, next time I go to Bowley Close ( https://www.guysandstthomas.nhs.uk/our-services/community/southwark/bowley-close-rehabilitation-centre.aspx ) come along and meet some of the severely disabled people there and then come back on here and say why you feel insulted for downplaying the access needs of the disabled over your own needs.

Then for fun, try living in a wheelchair for a period of say a month, including using a commode chair to go to the toilet because your toilet isn't big enough to transfer from a wheelchair or having to use a stairlift to go between floors because steps are beyond you or having people bathe you because a shower or bath is a,step to far.

Once, and only once you've lived in the wheels of a disabled person,without cheating, will you realise how insulting and arrogant you come across in your posts.

You may be called Dulwich Central but the world really doesn't revolve around you sweetie.

[heartblock]

Data...car use per person per day in Southwark is a quarter of that in Bexley and half of that in Greenwich and one of the lowest levels in London.

TFL - who travels by car in London.

So active travel was already high locally.

All LTNs do is make some wealthy, leafy roads a little more pricey while making already busy roads with important public transport links busier, more polluted and noisier, so that some Councillors can gift their wealthier constituents a taste of the rural life.

Not sure why...most have seconds homes that they access using their 3rd vehicle.

Oh and TFL data, more likely to drive the wealthier you are....

[Nigello]

Re the reality of - sometimes - Qs of buses idling whilst the one at the front of the Q is stopping to let people on or off: yes, this is a daily problem that could be made better by putting on smaller vehicles, or at least ones that use electricity as a power source. Half-empty (half-full?!) buses are not a good advert for bus lanes and restrictions on private vehicle uses, especially if there are long lines of them, idling away.

[heartblock]

Small local electric buses would be great actually. Excellent idea.

[Lebanums]

Then we have the age-old problem of pollution in creating electric. Until renewable energy is fully utilised, it will only shift the pollution elsewhere.

[alex_b]

Lebanums Wrote:

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> Then we have the age-old problem of pollution in

> creating electric. Until renewable energy is fully

> utilised, it will only shift the pollution

> elsewhere.

That?s not really true. Even fully using natural gas to produce the electricity there?s less than half the pollution of a internal combustion engine. This is because gas turbines in power stations can be far more efficient than an engine that needs to be moved around.

[heartblock]

I think, what I would like to happen is all LTNs removed and every road have a dedicated protected bike lane - preferably using an elevated section in line with the pavement and parking removed from at least one side of every road.

Add in small local public transport electric buses.

Introduce more school buses, but they all have to be electric.

This would encourage cycling on all roads, only disadvantage drivers, but not increase journey times and would relieve the idling traffic issue, it would also go some way to stopping the current LTNs being car parks for the wealthy to park their 2nd or 3rd car that doesn?t fit on the drive or garage.

Of course it would be very expensive and Southwark always prefers the cheap option that does nothing about pollution levels on high density residential roads, but allows them the claim of ?doing nothing is no option? and green-washing with the claim that they are reducing pollution, while merrily cutting down mature plane trees and increasing pollution on already busy residential roads.

[Otto2]

Tbh the LTN's lining Ed Grove provide the ability to put down a segregated cycling lane -- without the LTN's, there would be many intersections with cars on this hypothetical cycling lane that would negate the ease of travel for children and less confident cyclists.

Small electric buses sound great!

[Nigello]

Please stop looking to people in authority/in authorities, like Southwark, for all solutions. Everyone of you who owns a car can do something by not using it at least for one trip a week, ideally many more. Just don't do it, as Nike wouldn't say. It is simple but not that easy. Nevertheless it is the surest way of reducing your carbon footprint - just walk or take a bus, or simply don't go! (And that doesn't mean outsourcing your trip to a Getir/Just Eat delivery person.)

[Metallic]

DulwichCentral Wrote:

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> Ah thanks Spartacus. I wondered what the response

> would be. So to even dare to suggest that some

> people could use a mobility scooter is met with

> insults and and abuse.

>

> Very rational.

In all the posts by this person, clues emerge because of the vocabulary chosen. It is a bit of a giveaway.

I'm looking forward to either new council candidates for all parties, or the incumbents at least being defeated in Village Ward. Then the honesty and integrity of pro posts on here and elsewhere may be a bit fresher and factual than just accusing anti people of insults and abuse.

If a few pro people read some of the utter nastiness on Twitter for example, by recognisable locals (no matter how often they close an account or take a break before re-emerging) there may be a sense of shame too.

[heartblock]

Leaving the climate crisis up to individual choice isn?t really cutting it for the planet, nudge theory will trumpet in the eventual demise of earth.

But anyway... back to ?our healthy streets?, no the LTNs have made quiet car parks -just walk down Melbourne, Gilkes or Calton and admire the multiple BMW, Mercedes, Range Rovers, Mini run-arounds, just open, remove parking on one side and create a cycle- pedestrian space, with a textured step down.

[malumbu]

After a period of dormancy this thread went a bit crazy yesterday. But so much repetition. So to also repeat myself:

1. Going on about the council being corrupt, only interested in the leafy roads, and introducing LTNs purely to make money doesn't help your case. Leave the visions of Mr Burns (the Simpsons) rubbing his hands together whilst he exploits the masses in your heads. If you consider LTNs are flawed by all means discuss this.

2. Don't pretend that many motorists need to be prised out of their vehicles. Even with the best public transport in the world many still wont switch.

3. The 'oh wouldn't it be nice if (trams were reintroduced/small electric buses/teleporting) is generally pie in the sky. Go down to the London Transport Museum and you can see for yourself that by the 50s trams and trolleybuses were seen to be antiquated and far less comfortable than the latest buses and were less popular. Of course if we had invested then, or in later decades, thinks would be very different, such as the light railway systems in Nottingham, Manchester, Edinburgh and even Croydon. When I used to attend or run workshops we'd always try to avoid the 'wouldn't it be nice' discussions unless there was some likelihood of measures happening. BTW the bunching of buses is a pain, and something TfL should manage better - as once discussed with them - 175 and 186 bumping into each other all the way to Camberwell, on occasion, would frustrate me.

4. Be sure of your facts, the science etc. Poorly informed comments like electric vehicles just displace pollution are not helpful. Nearly half of our electricity is now renewable. The remaining fossil fueled power station discharge their emissions 70m in the air, very different to the high levels on some streets from the internal combustion engine. Electric vehicles are only part of the solution. Go onto Wiki, BBC bite size or other informative websites to find out more.

I'm intending to be constructive!

PS Heartblock, I reckon we are not so far apart in our views irrespective how this may come across. Restricting parking to one side of the road, that does sound like a good/brave measure. I'll dig around with some of my contacts to see whether this has come up. In the recent past some new developments have limited parking to encourage sustainable travel, although not sure how well this has delivered. And Langton Rise is an example of where this has just led to the road being half blocked. [yes this is Lewisham not Southwark]

[malumbu]

Agghh, now I've distracted myself - some articles on giving up your car and/or rewards for doing this

https://inews.co.uk/news/environment/families-tackle-climate-change-car-transport-vegan-diet-317718

https://policyexchange.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Clearways-Changing-Habits-Revised-Submission-Full-1.pdf

https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-college/grantham-institute/public/publications/evidence--submission-papers/Incentivising-low-carbon-travel_2020.pdf

Table on page 4 lists both low and high carbon (eg air miles) incentive scheme

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/we-fear-futures-not-enough-20876010

Only 7% of us are prepared to give up cars to save the planet.

[oimissus]

so surely the response to that is to look at making motorized vehicles as environmentally sound as possible, as economically as possible.

[malumbu]

Nope it's everyone looking at their lives and making this more sustainable, including cutting down unnecessary journeys, purchases, deliveries etc. Relying on the commercialisation of electric vehicles, or rocketing into near space, is putting your head in the sand. Sadly our world doesn't work like this.

[oimissus]

Doesn't work like what? I don't understand.

You've quoted a stat saying that 93% of people don't want to lose their car. Surely ignoring that is burying your head in the sand.

[heartblock]

Trams much better than nudge theory shock! https://www.emta.com/spip.php?article1212

https://www.hitachi.eu/en/press/70-new-trams-turin

and Southwark being particularly useless on this

https://www.southwarknews.co.uk/news/trams-could-make-a-return-to-southwark-by-2025/

[DuncanW]

We must never compare London with Amsterdam, it just won't do. They are completely different cities.

Hey - look what they're doing in Warsaw and Turin! :)

[Abe_froeman]

It's one city though, it's more than half of a whole continent: "Rail transport has always been particularly well developed in Central and Eastern Europe. where cities usually have expanded tramway networks. Their residents are accustomed to this type of connectivity."

It's interesting that in Warsaw they used EU funding to finance tramways and in East Dulwich we used EU funding to finance that pathetic plastic barrier outside some of the shops on Lordship Lane.