LTN: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3

[DulwichCentral]

legalalien Wrote:

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I am sure that they are

> more than aware of the pandemic.

So why didn't DA mention it in their flyer?

[ab29]

Is there a councils board of sort where we could make a complaint against Southwark council for what they've done?

[Bicknell]

duwlich allinace fighting fund now at 13,7oo.

heres the link

https://www.gofundme.com/f/help-end-road-closures-in-dulwich

[DulwichCentral]

Shame they didn't spend it in the shops :)

[ab29]

Thanks for sharing

Bicknell Wrote:

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> duwlich allinace fighting fund now at 13,7oo.

> heres the link

> https://www.gofundme.com/f/help-end-road-closures-

> in-dulwich

[alice]

DulwichCentral Wrote:

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> @ Alice

>

> Seem to be doing ok to me

Ha thought someone would use that photo. It was a one day engineered thing. Want a photo today?

[legalalien]

Perhaps they thought that pretty much everyone was aware of the pandemic? I've certainly noticed it over the last 12 months or so.

DulwichCentral Wrote:

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> legalalien Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> I am sure that they are

> > more than aware of the pandemic.

>

> So why didn't DA mention it in their flyer?

[LTN BooHoo]

DulwichCentral Wrote:

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> legalalien Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> I am sure that they are

> > more than aware of the pandemic.

>

> So why didn't DA mention it in their flyer?

Isn?t Dulwich Alliance advocating for a virtual gated community by promoting the introduction of a permit system where only those with permits can drive in at certain times?

Legalalien answers to the above would be great.

[legalalien]

LTN BooHoo - you mean to the question about the permit system (I answered the other one)? Not quite sure why you're asking me / how I would know - I haven't seen a flyer, I think I may have seen something to that effect a while ago from One Dulwich (rather than the Dulwich Alliance) - not sure if it's still the case, I've just checked their website and their stated mission is "One Dulwich supports area-wide timed restrictions (after consultation with the local community on hours of restriction, access, and location of entry/exit points) as a more proportionate, and more socially just, solution."

ETA: I've just looked at the Dulwich Alliance website and their petition to Council in February said this:

"Secondly, we ask you to put in place a holistic, area-wide, camera-controlled exemption scheme that allows fair and reasonable access during restricted hours. We now know that the ANPR cameras you have installed in Dulwich do not require a CPZ to be in operation so that, as in Hammersmith and Fulham, vehicles with exemptions can pass through these camera gates without being charged. Which streets should be restricted, how long for, and who should have access, are all key issues that the Council should be putting forward as options for consultation."

HTH

[Bicknell]

sorry got link wrong

dwulwich alliance Fighting fund is:

https://www.gofundme.com/f/help-end-road-closures-in-dulwich

gone up since i posted

now at 13800

[alice]

doubled

[northernmonkey]

@Alice - when was MG thriving? It has very few 'walk in' shops. The gym remains as hard, if not harder to get a slot in as its really successful - the rest of the businesses are mostly hairdressers / nail bar / beauty salons. The only 'browsing businesses' are Blue Feather and Fashion Conscience. Lane Eight is really busy but just not open past lunchtime which is a shame so not sure on what basis you'd go to hang gout there.

Also worth noting that when MG was fully open to traffic Fashion Conscience briefly had a cafe next door to the shop - it didn't last long either, despite having through traffic at the time!

[Otto2]

I wonder if the drop in business that some Melbourne businesses say they are feeling is more a result of less people walking to and fro to the station as less are still not going into work? I went in the M&S by the station today around commuting hour and it was super-quiet in comparison to the big M&S on Lordship. On my walk down Melbourne there were lots of parents and kids scooting and cycling to school - and - Lane Eight was indeed busy and the little seating area outside was full....

[legalalien]

Northern monkey - isn?t that the point? I?m no Mary Portas but I?d imagine it?s places like dry cleaners, hairdressers, nail bars etc that get hardest hit if lack of parking / traffic congestion make them harder to get to. People who can?t / don?t want to walk or cycle will switch to an alternative service provider that they can drive to more easily?* (Hairdressers maybe not so much as there?s a personal connection - but dry cleaning (and the locksmith for example). And there?s a knock on effect - if people aren?t going to the dry cleaner / shoe shop because of the traffic issue, they won?t be buying a coffee next door either.

It?s another reason why relying on generalised data like the TfL stuff doesn?t really tell you what will happen to a particular set of shops in a particular location. I?ve said it before, I think the focus on general data rather than the specific case in hand is a problem. The whole point of local government is that it can consider he specifics of the local area - otherwise why not centralise everything?

*yes perhaps they shouldn?t be driving there but that?s scant comfort to the small business owner- unless we?re happy to add some businesses to the ?collateral damage? pile along with the residents of main roads.

[ali2007]

I decided against going to the locksmith on MG because the traffic was so bad on LL that it would have doubled my journey time. Very frustrating to know the shop that you need is only a few meters away but because of the road closure my journey time would have doubled (if not more)

Had I been able to drive along Melbourne Grove I would have definitely used them, but the idea of sitting in traffic jams to get there. Then sitting in traffic jams to get out again, put me off.

I took my business to Herne Hill because it was more convenient for me (though I'm an ED resident).

I believe (but am not certain) that the locksmith may have closed now?

[northernmonkey]

I don't think its so straightforward. Nail bars are either a destination (eg they're fab and you'd travel to them regardless) or they're just on every corner (as it seems to be the case in east dulwich). Not sure why you'd pass lots of other nail bars to go to one of those.

Hairdressers - you tend to stick with good ones. I've been following mine around different places for the past 12 years or so (3 different salons and now mobile!)

What are people browsing at the locksmiths? its mostly a call out service and does key cutting. Really good key cutting but again there are other options - eg the DIY stores so don't imagine people come from a wide area to get a key cut - and if they are they can still drive. Interesting that Grove Reopen and the anti tweets have essentially killed their business for now though as everyone thinks they've closed rather than just moving!

legalalien Wrote:

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> Northern monkey - isn?t that the point? I?m no

> Mary Portas but I?d imagine it?s places like dry

> cleaners, hairdressers, nail bars etc that get

> hardest hit if lack of parking / traffic

> congestion make them harder to get to. People who

> can?t / don?t want to walk or cycle will switch to

> an alternative service provider that they can

> drive to more easily?* (Hairdressers maybe not so

> much as there?s a personal connection - but dry

> cleaning (and the locksmith for example). And

> there?s a knock on effect - if people aren?t going

> to the dry cleaner / shoe shop because of the

> traffic issue, they won?t be buying a coffee next

> door either.

>

> It?s another reason why relying on generalised

> data like the TfL stuff doesn?t really tell you

> what will happen to a particular set of shops in a

> particular location. I?ve said it before, I think

> the focus on general data rather than the specific

> case in hand is a problem. The whole point of

> local government is that it can consider he

> specifics of the local area - otherwise why not

> centralise everything?

>

>

> *yes perhaps they shouldn?t be driving there but

> that?s scant comfort to the small business owner-

> unless we?re happy to add some businesses to the

> ?collateral damage? pile along with the residents

> of main roads.

[legalalien]

You don?t think there?s an in between eg happy to drive to x nail bar if it takes me 15 mins, but if that changes to 45 mins I?ll go to the next nearest one that?s 20 mins away?

(I am not a nail bar person aside from the occasional pre summer holiday pedicure, so happy to be shot down when it comes to this example. Probably should have chosen something else.)

I did browse in the locksmith the other day when I was having some keys cut and came away with a new combination padlock and a small key safe. It?s possible I am an atypical consumer. Do we know exactly where on LL they are moving to (I think I read it was LL?)

[alice]

Never said that Melbourne Grove is ever madly thriving. my comment was a response to whoever said the LTNs increase trade in small businesses clearly it?s rubbish.

Lane 8 is a mystery only sells coffee for limited time. How can it survive. Unless it?s a vanity project of sorts.

[Rockets]

Talking about things dropping through your door that annoy people. This dropped through our door today and it absolutely incensed my wife for its blinkeredness (and she hasn't been easily riled by the LTNs). She met a friend today who had also received it and she also found it infuriating and had followed the link to the CleanAIrDulwich twitter feed as she wanted to comment only to find that the comments are locked to prevent people from leaving any feedback (I am sure CleanAirDulwich would say to prevent trolls but many interpret it as they get more people disagreeing with them than agreeing and so it helps to manage the narrative).

Of course we all want "More of this" and no-one wants to go "Back to this" but if "More of This" means other people have to endure "More of that" then that doesn't seem right or fair.

This is what so annoys people - this "well we're all right Jack" attitude and blind ignorance to what is happening as a result of these changes.

[northernmonkey]

Mainly I don't think that if anyone was previously driving 15 mins to a nail bar, that there would be another in a completely opposite (unaffected by any traffic) 20 mins in another direction.

Whilst I can see that there are some things you might buy from Callows - its not an extensive range - and not the kind of thing people buy more than once. I have on occasions bought padlocks from them or door code buttons, again something you go specifically for in general.

They haven't said where they are moving to - I heard something about Grove Vale

legalalien Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> You don?t think there?s an in between eg happy to

> drive to x nail bar if it takes me 15 mins, but if

> that changes to 45 mins I?ll go to the next

> nearest one that?s 20 mins away?

>

> (I am not a nail bar person aside from the

> occasional pre summer holiday pedicure, so happy

> to be shot down when it comes to this example.

> Probably should have chosen something else.)

>

> I did browse in the locksmith the other day when I

> was having some keys cut and came away with a new

> combination padlock and a small key safe. It?s

> possible I am an atypical consumer. Do we know

> exactly where on LL they are moving to (I think I

> read it was LL?)

[exdulwicher]

Of course we all want "More of this" and no-one wants to go "Back to this" but if "More of This" means other people have to endure "More of that" then that doesn't seem right or fair.

This is what so annoys people - this "well we're all right Jack" attitude and blind ignorance to what is happening as a result of these changes.

You could argue it the other way round too - look at what it was and now look at what it is. A sort of inspirational "ooh, we want some of that too". Plenty of similar pics in circulation from all over the world where a traffic-clogged highway has been turned into a public space, bike lanes etc.

https://www.archdaily.com/773139/before-and-after-30-photos-that-prove-the-power-of-designing-with-pedestrians-in-mind

I view that as more of a counter to the alternative currently being proposed by DA of "let's go back to what it was".

[Bicknell]

dont think duwlcih allince is saying lets go back to what it was.(see what @legalalien said) theyre saying that survey so cnfusing and so biased that its the only way to get southwwark back to the table.

a lot of disagreement i know but duwlich alliance says current ltn unfair - need to consider everyone not just a few

just looked it up on thier website - faqs here

https://dulwichalliance.org/surveyfaqs/

[alice]

But why does this sunlit upland have to be right in the middle of the wealthiest streets? It?s not so much what it is but where it is, and who?s benefitting from it.

[legalalien]

You?re right of course - I?m not planning to turn my house into Fort Knox. Pondering shops. I do think there are some effects eg someone from Wandsworth dropping children at DPL or DC might once have then gone to buy shoes / books/ drop dry cleaning/ go to the chemist and get a coffee but is now more inclined to go to west Dulwich or give it a miss and go back to Wandsworth...

Possibly not useful for me to speculate, the shop owners and driver-customers are better placed to comment.

northernmonkey Wrote:

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> Mainly I don't think that if anyone was previously

> driving 15 mins to a nail bar, that there would be

> another in a completely opposite (unaffected by

> any traffic) 20 mins in another direction.

>

> Whilst I can see that there are some things you

> might buy from Callows - its not an extensive

> range - and not the kind of thing people buy more

> than once. I have on occasions bought padlocks

> from them or door code buttons, again something

> you go specifically for in general.

>

> They haven't said where they are moving to - I

> heard something about Grove Vale

>

>

> legalalien Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > You don?t think there?s an in between eg happy

> to

> > drive to x nail bar if it takes me 15 mins, but

> if

> > that changes to 45 mins I?ll go to the next

> > nearest one that?s 20 mins away?

> >

> > (I am not a nail bar person aside from the

> > occasional pre summer holiday pedicure, so

> happy

> > to be shot down when it comes to this example.

> > Probably should have chosen something else.)

> >

> > I did browse in the locksmith the other day when

> I

> > was having some keys cut and came away with a

> new

> > combination padlock and a small key safe. It?s

> > possible I am an atypical consumer. Do we know

> > exactly where on LL they are moving to (I think

> I

> > read it was LL?)

[rachp]

I would imagine that if you did a quick straw poll with people who have sat in Dulwich Square, many do not live on the wealthy streets you refer to. And like most of Dulwich Village, it?s precisely because it?s a ?nice area? that it?s a destination for people from further afield. That?s how nice places work.