LTN: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3

[legalalien]

I think it?s likely that people with posters either (i) know DA members personally and got a poster from them; or (ii) are part of a small minority who are aware that the posters exist/ where to get them from, and have time in their daily lives to collect a poster, or near neighbours of those people (the posters tend to appear in ?clumps?). It?s not as if everyone has had one delivered to them and then chosen whether or not to put it up, so I really don?t think it?s any indication at all tbh.

[heartblock]

Well..I bought my flat as a poorly paid junior health professional 30 years ago. I wish it was worth 3 million. I think you might find that houses in Calton, Court, Melbourne, Derwent are as a mode average far more expensive than ED Grove.

A mean average isn't much use when thinking about house prices because if you have one 4 mill house and 3 400K flats your average is 1.3 million which is silly if looking at house prices on ED Grove.

From RightMove 'The majority of sales in East Dulwich Grove during the last year were flats, selling for an average price of ?530,500'

which is cheap for this area.

Compare to gated community Melbourne 'The majority of sales in Melbourne Grove during the last year were terraced properties, selling for an average price of ?1,060,000.'

and gated community Calton Ave 'Properties in Calton Avenue had an overall average price of ?2,700,000 over the last year. Overall, sold prices in Calton Avenue over the last year were 68% up on the previous year.'

Or gated community Court Lane

'Properties in Court Lane had an overall average price of ?1,781,667 over the last year. The majority of sales in Court Lane during the last year were terraced properties, selling for an average price of ?1,795,833. Semi-detached properties sold for an average of ?1,753,333.'

There are a lot of posters on the Dutch Estate, posters at the LL end and the Village end, with privately owned flats along the middle.

The rental flats - of which there are many - on conversations with some renters, hate the increased traffic, but are worried about landlords, so will not put a poster up.

I'm amazed by the support for re-thinking the LTNs on ED Grove..many people are very upset about the extra traffic on an already illegally polluted road. Many residents live in flats with no garden, very different from the houses in the LTNs, many of which have huge gardens.

[Otto2]

I know three different households on Ed Grove. The first -- a young couple who rent a tiny flat are very much in favour of the LTN's. The second, a homeowner with a high value property is against them and very active in campaigning for removal. The third, another homeowner in a property of lesser value than the anti-person is both for and against and thinks they could be tweaked and electric cars solve all etc.

[alice]

How our friends confirm our own ideas. Strange?

[Otto2]

Not really Alice - there are three different opinions here and I know them all very well and I am very much friends with all of them despite the differences.

"I know three different households on Ed Grove. The first -- a young couple who rent a tiny flat are very much in favour of the LTN's. The second, a homeowner with a high value property is against them and very active in campaigning for removal. The third, another homeowner in a property of lesser value than the anti-person is both for and against and thinks they could be tweaked and electric cars solve all etc."

[ab29]

I cannot imagine that anyone who is capable of empathising can support a scheme like so-called LTN.

[heartblock]

Nothing low....nothing about being neighbourly and definitely nothing about reducing traffic.

[alice]

Otto2 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Not really Alice - there are three different

> opinions here and I know them all very well and I

> am very much friends with all of them despite the

> differences.

>

> "I know three different households on Ed Grove.

> The first -- a young couple who rent a tiny flat

> are very much in favour of the LTN's. The second,

> a homeowner with a high value property is against

> them and very active in campaigning for removal.

> The third, another homeowner in a property of

> lesser value than the anti-person is both for and

> against and thinks they could be tweaked and

> electric cars solve all etc."

just that it fits in with your opinion those anti LTNs are the wealthy big car owners and the ordinary people benefit from them when the reverse is closer to the truth.

[Otto2]

I have never voiced that opinion Alice.

[heartblock]

Monday morning, schools back, idling traffic all the way down ED Grove..was never like this before LTNs. Young children walking in all those fumes. I do hope all those so called ?clean air campaigners? feel satisfied.

[DulwichCentral]

In 2016 we were temporarily living in Camberwell. Drove child to school in the village then. Got stuck on East Dulwich Grove every day. I remember how stressful it was and now I think wow - why on earth didn't we cycle. We could have come down Greendale... oh - but then bit from there to village was so gridlocked we would have had to cycle on the pavement.

[DulvilleRes]

As to where anti LTN support comes from, and how deep it is, I hope the consultation will shed some further light. What has dogged constructive debate around this divisive issue has been hard data. Even allowing for the fact that some people feel the consultation has limitations in it's terms of reference, it will still probably offer up some comprehensive insights for everyone.

Without disrespecting the views and experience of those living on the roads affected by displaced traffic, there is another way of looking at the LTNs. Currently, they appear to be characterized by some in the anti LTN lobby as 'gated communities'. This isn't true - they are simply shut to cut through motorized traffic. They are open to anyone for any other kind of purpose.

I was really struck yesterday by the large numbers of people who were out yesterday, enjoying the park and the shops. The benches in the plaza were full pretty well all day with people having a picnic/ coffee, I saw a family teaching a kid to ride a bike on a quiet neighbouring road. Many of those people most likely come from outside the area.

This last few months of lockdown has made me realise just how little open public space there is - Dulwich Park was so crowded at times it resembled a prison exercise yard. A LTN is a traffic-free oasis for all to enjoy, not just 'the few' as they have been charactersied in the some of the anti LTN descriptions. My feeling is over the coming years there will be a real shift in how urban space in relation to the private motor vehicle is viewed. Last week I also worked in Manchester, where large parts of the centre where I was were pedestrianised, and it was great. The LTNs as a common amenity for everyone I think is a contributory factor in the debate.

[ab29]

As a cyclist you are at the road like EDG for 5 - 10 minutes; others have to live with it 24/7.

I would love to see a reversal of this experiment - close LL, EDG, Croxted Rd etc an redirect the traffic via Calton, Court Lane and so on - and see how many LTN supporters would be left after that.

[Nigello]

Pedestrianisation looks great in teh sunshine (as well as in glossy brochures and blissed-out computer generated images) but not so much on a wet, November Tuesday night. It was fashionable in the sixties and seventies to tarmac over living streets but the results were often mixed, if not downright negative. Rye Lane sounds good in meetings and on overlaid agency videos, but really, is it better to have no buses at all?

[dulwichfolk]

ab29 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> As a cyclist you are at the road like EDG for 5 -

> 10 minutes; others have to live with it 24/7.

>

> I would love to see a reversal of this experiment

> - close LL, EDG, Croxted Rd etc an redirect the

> traffic via Calton, Court Lane and so on - and see

> how many LTN supporters would be left after that.

Exactly this point....and don?t forgot to say ?I think/hope? it will get better in 6/12/18 let?s extend due to the pandemic months.

[alice]

Exactly. It?s not what they are it?s where Dulwich LTNs were put.

[alice]

Exactly. It?s not what they are it?s where Dulwich LTNs were put. And why.

[Rockets]

I agree that sunny days wandering through quiet streets are lovely and days like the sunny weekend they really come into their own. I was walking through the DV junction during the wet days preceding the sunny weather and there wasn't a soul in sight. Now the schools are back, even on a sunny day like today, there are, outside the school drop-off and pick-up time, very few people around - very few cyclists, very few pedestrians.

So, the question you have to ask yourself is whether the devastation being felt outside of the LTN areas is worth it for those idyllic moments and I am not sure it is, because every time I enjoy Dulwich Village I am torn because I know and understand what is happening to Lordship Lane (for example).

If there is a magical way to create that feeling across the whole of Dulwich then sign me up but I have yet to see any suggestions that don't create a nirvana for some and a living hell for others.

P.S. Whilst walking (and choking) down Lordship Lane at the weekend I noticed that some of the idiotic wing of the pro-LTN lobby have taken a leaf out of the idiotic wing of the anti-LTN lobby by graffitiing "love LTN" signs (LTN within a heart shape) at a few locations on Lordship Lane.

[alice]

And the hearts stuck on Melbourne grove with child writing how much they love them. I?ve yet to see children there. It?s dead.

[Bicknell]

did anyone go to @tomszekeres talk on air pollution in s london last night?

someone said it was interesting.

and that he said Be kind to each other

amen to that

[Earl Aelfheah]

@ab29 - any chance you could stop with the name calling? It should be possible to construct an argument without repeatedly resorting to personal attacks.

[Rockets]

I see the A205 has roadworks which is causing yet more chaos around the Dulwich area - has the watermain gone again?

[Earl Aelfheah]

@ab29 - I just took a look back. So far you have called me ?arrogant and selfish? a ?know-it-all, arrogant cyclist? suggested that I ?don?t care about anyone else? (using ALL CAPS) and accused me of suffering from a ?complete lack of empathy? (again using ALL CAPS). It?s possible we have different, but still honestly held, views. Not sure name calling is strictly necessary.

[ab29]

@3xR: name calling means the use of offensive names - have not used any when referring to you and your posts.

[ab29]

And Rockets yes, they've dug out a hole and put temporary lights in place. The traffic goes all the way to Forest Hill. Just when I thought this cannot get any worst.