LTN: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3

[Pierre]

rupert james Wrote:

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> If you lived in a three flat victorian conversion

> or even a 2 up 2 down conversion would you really

> want this blocking up the entrance hall to 2

> flats. Also if you are the landlord would you want

> this type of bike damaging the fabric of the

> building when it is stored and moved in and out.

>

> Like many ideas re bikes they are not thought

> through. Also how will it effect health and safety

> if Councils can remove pot plants because they

> block the exit way.

Interesting idea. So let's say two of you share a flat in a Victorian conversion, there are two other flats and an average of two adults in each flat, and each pair of adults owns a car. Is it "thought through" that there should be allocated on-street parking for three (potentially large) cars in front of that Victorian conversion and that they should be allowed to "block up" the road space that could be much more efficiently used to move around people and deliveries by... more or less literally any other means?

It's only really the sense of entitlement that most drivers have that causes most of these arguments in the first place. Some even think they still pay "road tax" even though it was abolished in the 1930s and roads are paid for by *everyone's* taxes!

[first mate]

Sure, but you must admit something similar will be important if cycling is to replace a range of car journeys focussed on shopping, deliveries, taking family members from a to b, other everyday chores? I cannot see any of the activities Karim described as being really doable on ordinary bikes. There is no outright suggestion everyone should have or will need a cargo bike/ access to one, but examination of what you can realistically use to substitute for car journeys indicates this would be the case.

rahrahrah Wrote:

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> I don't think anyone is suggesting that cargo

> bikes are for everyone.

[Earl Aelfheah]

They're definitely part of the change that's needed, sure.

[Rockets]

Also as Otto2 was posting earlier some people with cargo bikes currently stored in their houses would be very keen to use cycle hangers but the challenge is, given the huge waiting list for cycle hangar spaces, can the council devote (what looks like) three of 4 normal cycle storage spots in a hangar to a single cargo bike - there isn't the infrastructure in place to aptly support demand for normal bikes yet alone cargo bikes.

Modal shift will never amount to anything more than low single digit percentages if councils don't wake up to the fact that stick alone won't make it happen - there has to be some carrot.

Every time I see a pro-LTN twitter groups posting pictures and videos from the Townley Road junction of children on bikes I do chuckle and think to myself that all it is validating is that modal shift only happens for those who attend some of the most expensive private schools in the country (where finding places to store bikes at school is not an issue) and are able to cycle from some of the largest houses in London (which also have no problem storing bikes).

[Earl Aelfheah]

Rockets Wrote:

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> Every time I see a pro-LTN twitter groups posting

> pictures and videos from the Townley Road junction

> of children on bikes I do chuckle and think to

> myself that all it is validating is that modal

> shift only happens for those who attend some of

> the most expensive private schools in the country

> (where finding places to store bikes at school is

> not an issue) and are able to cycle from some of

> the largest houses in London (which also have no

> problem storing bikes).

Most Londoners (and in particular, most of the less affluent Londoners) don't own a car. So it kind of makes sense that any modal shift will be concentrated on those who actually own and use vehicles.

[Otto2]

Rockets - the cycle hoops that store cargo bikes can store 3 bikes - you couldn't store 3 cars in the same space!

Not everyone needs a cargo bike (and really, ours is a bit of a luxury but it started life as a tandem for our kids).

We did not have one for a long while -- you'd be surprised what two panniers and a bag bungee'd on top of a back rack can hold - groceries for a family of 4 for a week for starters!

I'd love to see some sort of cargo bike rental/share scheme locally...

[Earl Aelfheah]

Rockets Wrote:

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> Also as Otto2 was posting earlier some people with

> cargo bikes currently stored in their houses would

> be very keen to use cycle hangers but the

> challenge is, given the huge waiting list for

> cycle hangar spaces, can the council devote (what

> looks like) three of 4 normal cycle storage spots

> in a hangar to a single cargo bike - there isn't

> the infrastructure in place to aptly support

> demand for normal bikes yet alone cargo bikes.

Agree with this. On street bike storage needs to be massively increased.

[first mate]

Yes, but then many bike users say they still need to use a car?

I don't think that is about laziness or not caring etc.. it is just the way the modern world has evolved over the last few centuries...in that things we may need or need to do, cannot always be done on just two wheels or by using public transport.

On top of that, many will have made life choices- where they live, where and how they work, where they school their children, on the basis of being able to make some of those journeys by car. Expecting them to rip all that up overnight is unrealistic. Great if you are lucky enough to be able to but let's not punish those who cannot.

[Siduhe]

I'd love to see some sort of cargo bike rental/share scheme locally...

This is a great idea - exactly the sort of thing that the Council should be thinking about funding (or part funding a private business) as part of its strategy. I've got pretty good at two panniers and a backpack but for really heavy or bulky items it would be great to have another option.

[first mate]

I'd rather see spending on that than murals and the like, for sure.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Agree it's not about laziness or not caring. I've never suggested this and I don't criticise people who drive - I do so myself.

One person gives up a car and that makes space for several bike parking spaces on a street. Not everyone needs to do this, just a handful and you free space for a number of bikes for example.

No one thinks we're going to rid the world of cars, but we can reduce the number of cars and the number of car journeys. Slowly and steadily, through incremental change.

For example, I used to drive my kids to a club in the Village, I now walk or cycle with them because it's quicker and easier with the LTN. So do many of the other parents at the same club - it's very noticeable as there used to be chaos at drop off with all the cars - now there aren't enough bike parking spaces. That's a probably 20 or so fewer short car journeys. Not much, but there will be other people making similar little changes, and so it starts to add up.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Siduhe Wrote:

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> I'd love to see some sort of cargo bike

> rental/share scheme locally...

>

> This is a great idea - exactly the sort of thing

> that the Council should be thinking about funding

> (or part funding a private business) as part of

> its strategy. I've got pretty good at two

> panniers and a backpack but for really heavy or

> bulky items it would be great to have another

> option.

Yeah, great idea. Also more investment in car clubs etc. The idea that everyone needs their own car is crazy.

[first mate]

But rahrahrah,

Surely even you must concede that an awful lot of people are getting caught in the crosshairs of this so called steady, incremental change. Indeed, they are being punished, accused of being lazy and entitled and simply not caring.

Your tone has been pretty consistent all along but others seem all too ready to generally trash objections and those objecting, and seem incapable of acknowledging the flaws in the current state of affairs. Revolutions do not always work, the results can be very different from those envisaged by the 'revolutionaries' and not always for the better either. I'd really like to see some of the zealotry and wish lists replaced with an effort to really address practical realities and the detail.

[Earl Aelfheah]

first mate Wrote:

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> But rahrahrah,

>

> Surely even you must concede that an awful lot of

> people are getting caught in the crosshairs of

> this so called steady, incremental change. Indeed,

> they are being punished, accused of being lazy and

> entitled and simply not caring.

>

> Your tone has been pretty consistent all along but

> others seem all too ready to generally trash

> objections and those objecting, and seem incapable

> of acknowledging the flaws in the current state of

> affairs. Revolutions do not always work, the

> results can be very different from those envisaged

> by the 'revolutionaries' and not always for the

> better either. I'd really like to see some of the

> zealotry and wish lists replaced with an effort to

> really address practical realities and the detail.

There are definitely problems with how some of these changes have been implemented. I'm sure there will be adjustments and that's probably right. My own view is that I'm broadly in favour of LTNs in principle - whilst I accept that any individual scheme may have issues and that these should be reviewed and changes made where there is evidence that they're not working. There is lots of hyperbole and name calling in the debate unfortunately and that's clearly not helpful. Twitter is unbelievable. It comes from all quarters of course, but I have to say (I know you'd expect me to say this), that there are some particularly nasty insults and accusations being thrown about by those who are anti any kind of road changes.

I mean, I guess that's just the internet unfortunately.

[exdulwicher]

Otto2

I'd love to see some sort of cargo bike rental/share scheme locally...

Some of the bigger ones require some training to use them, it's not a piece of kit you can just jump on, chuck a wardrobe in the front and pedal off. It takes a certain amount of experience to know how to load them as well.

Currently, if you want something moving by cargo bike and don't have one yourself, you need to contact PedalMe (they do run training sessions as well). Most retailers of cargo bikes run basic courses too - they don't just sell you a bike and chuck you out onto the street with it!

[Otto2]

I agree some are "next level" -- Pedal me guys are perfect for larger loads. I was thinking "cargo" more along the lines of what Karim linked to here:

https://sigo.green

Or, for kid ferrying, a Nihola - they can be rented in Dulwich Park but only for use in the park...

[northernmonkey]

Totally agree - i don't need a cargo bike the whole time - but there are times where one would be really helpful and the alternative default would be a car.

Siduhe Wrote:

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> I'd love to see some sort of cargo bike

> rental/share scheme locally...

>

> This is a great idea - exactly the sort of thing

> that the Council should be thinking about funding

> (or part funding a private business) as part of

> its strategy. I've got pretty good at two

> panniers and a backpack but for really heavy or

> bulky items it would be great to have another

> option.

[Rockets]

The challenge that the council has, and why the LTNs are not working, is because whilst car ownership is some of the highest in our part of Southwark the flip side is that the number of local journeys done on foot or by bike is also some of the highest in the borough. So what gives?

It suggests that locals are not using their cars for unnecessary journeys yet are being unfairly punished by (many of them) having to live with the displacement caused by these closures. To be fair, if 68% of local journeys were being done or foot or bike in 2018 you can bet that, thanks to Covid, is probably up near the 80% level and you won't get much higher than that no matter what you do.

In fact, maybe these measures will actually have an even more negative impact. I have worried for a long time that Lordship Lane is suffering because of the increases in traffic. Now it never was the quietest of roads but the pollution is becoming horrendous with the traffic queuing along its length with the displaced traffic. I suspect a lot of those 68% were walking journeys to and from the Lane and at what point do people no longer go to shop or eat there because of the pollution?

[tiddles]

I am utterly against the current implementation of the LTN?and the dreadful impact on the majority of ED residents but I applaud Karim in showing how adaptable cargo bikes can be. A real option for some - but I?m afraid my annual trip to the tip is very much larger than that shown!😂

I am lucky enough to have an e-bike which I use when possible or agreeable (sorry don?t do cold or rain) but I am frequently carrying a lot of boxes, files, building materials- so I have simply resigned myself to a 10 min journey taking 30 mins now.

[first mate]

This is a bit odd, almost every poster against LTNs seems to own a bike as well as a car and nearly all in favour seem to own a car as well as a bike. Go figure!

[mr.chicken]

first mate Wrote:

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> This is a bit odd, almost every poster against

> LTNs seems to own a bike as well as a car and

> nearly all in favour seem to own a car as well as

> a bike. Go figure!

I think it's more fair to say us anti-LTN-ers rightly despise cyclists as the scum that they are. After all did our own heartblock not say that cyclists are "Lycra clad kings of the road" who knock over kids with funny names? I don't recall any of us disagreeing with him.

Lycra, my man, lycra! How can they not be the worst?

[Siduhe]

To be fair mr.chicken, you don't know true horror until a gentleman in tight (possibly undersized) lycra shorts or leggings, without appropriate undergarments, stops in front of you and stands on his pedals and bends over, rather than put a foot down. I'm not sure that all of them understand just how much is visible. More of an issue on my cycle into Blackfriars to be fair, but, as an increasingly elderly woman cyclist, I want to howl "my eyes, my eyes".

[Pierre]

Rockets Wrote:

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> It is also very telling that in the Netherlands,

> despite their love of the bike, they own more cars

> per capita than we do in the UK.

I didn't know this; I wonder what they do with them? They certainly have the sense not to try and drive round cities in them - but that's possibly because their cities' (and towns') infrastructure is so good that walking and cycling are very safe things to do and public transport is "normal" whereas driving is not.

Plus, their legal system presumes fault on the part of the less vulnerable road user. If you're a cyclist and you hit a pedestrian, it's your fault. If you're a driver and you hit a cyclist, it's your fault. Our legal system relies on a jury and an old man judge in most cases, so the "well, we've all lost concentration sometimes and really the cyclist shouldn't have been there" argument seems to prevail.

Anyway, that's a bit of a diversion away from making streets healthier - let's get back to thinking all cyclists wear lycra...

[slarti b]

@Pierre

Interesting about the Dutch. Maybe it is because they use cars when they need to and walk or cycle at other times?

If so, will be similar to the residents of Dulwich. As our coucillors keep pointing out, car ownership is Dulwich is higher than in the north of Southwark (where public transport is much better annd demographics are different). But what they foget to mention is that Dulwich residents have a much,much higher level of active travel, especially walking, than the rest of Southwark.

Imagine how much better it would be if the councillors put their efforts into improving public transport rather than creating vanity projects such as "Margy Plaza".

[slarti b]

@mr.chicken

"And to do that we can should scrap the LTNs right now so the people living in their 3 flat Victorian conversions can take their kids to school in their SUVs "

You are suggesting scrapping, or even just altering, the so-called LTN's? What an outrageous suggestion.

Me and my neighbours on Calton Avenue put a lot of effort into persuading Margy and Richard to close off our road and divert the traffic onto EDG and Lordship Lane. Those of us who haven't yet sold up are really pleased by the how much our house prices have increased now we have own private enclave.

I know the congestion and pollution on the Dulwich Village bypass roads has increased massively but, do they really matter?