LTN: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3

[first mate]

northernmonkey,

I understand and apologies to Karim if put in an awkward position. I also appreciate the great photos.

Frankly, I do not see that unless you have a side passage or a large house and hallway, this would be an easy bike to store and manoeuvre? The other issue is safety outside when left? I'd not want to leave a bike like this for any length of time and that does raise question marks as to how practical it really is?

I also note Karim is holding onto his car.

It seems like this option works for those with deep pockets, plenty of space at home and, I guess, a limited need to travel much or far to make a living, get children schooled, care for vulnerable relatives...the list goes on.

I am open to this but really not convinced. For many this would have to be a complete substitute for a car, not an add on.

[Nigello]

Whilst it may not be valid for teh average person, encouraging local businesses and delivery firms to use a bike like Karim's instead of a Vespa, etc. or even a car would be helpful. I despair that folk are now using delivery firms to get them expensive ice cream and kettle crisps because they simply C B A to get up from their sofas - such a lot of extra fumes and underspent calories cannot be sustainable! (I am pleased that they offer employment and create taxes, of course, though I would prefer other ways of doing this.)

[northernmonkey]

Your points on bike storage are really important First Mate. I can't describe how disappointing I find the council's new 'consultation' on where bike hangers are needed, it feels like yet another delaying tactic. There are 1000s of people on waiting lists, any new hanger fills up immediately, so its clear that the demand is huge and they should be on every street (with those with more flats or houses with no front gardens prioritised)

The point about how you wouldn't want to leave a bike like that for any length of time is also an issue - one of my key considerations in cycling to new places is thinking about where I will leave my bike safely and whether it will be there when i get back. Generally this isn't something people have to worry about with cars (Range Rovers aside!). We need much more proper cycle storage - sheffield stands etc and bike theft needs to be taken a lot more seriously.

All that said, the bike that Karim is sharing photos of is immensely practical for lots of families locally. Options such as ground anchors, alarms and cctv can also improve security if having to be left outside.

[mr.chicken]

Rockets Wrote:

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> "Let's discuss whether we can install measures on

> your road".

>

> It seems the preferred council solution to the

> chaos these measures cause is to pass it onto

> someone else.

The fundamental truth is that people will always go somewhere by car. And if the council prevents that by closing roads, then they will just find somewhere else to go by car. I'm *not* prepared to take a 20 minute walk (looking like the unloved relative of those awful lycra clad kings of the road who we anti-LTN ers so rightly despise) when there is somewhere I can drive by car. I'd rather spend two hours in traffic than 20 minutes on foot. That will teach those councillers and the dreadful kids with silly names who use Dulwich Square for things like skateboarding or worse.

There is nothing at all which could ever reduce the amount of traffic. The council should just accept that.

In fact I think the council should unwind all of the LTN like stuff they have engaged in over the years, like the undemocratic banning of cars from Dulwich park in 2003. Are you with me?

[first mate]

northernmonkey,

But can one of these cargo bikes easily fit into a hangar? Especially if there are other bikes in there? Seems like an awful lot of people are going to need cargo bikes in order for something like LTNs to have any chance of working, so the question of storage that is also secure is vital.

I would be in a constant state of anxiety a bike like this would be stolen. Ground anchors, CCTV etc..do not offer the necessary level of security around a ?4,000 investment.

If most people that have a bike also keep a car, the car being essential for some journeys that cannot be made in other ways, where do all the hangars go?

This is the level of detail that needs to be considered and I do not think is.

Sorry, so many people have enough to deal with right now, simply trying to earn a living, make ends meet and juggle family commitments without forcing further layers of stress on top.

I'd also be more convinced if those leading the 'charge' on LTNs all gave up their cars. But to a man or woman most have admitted they still own, use and keep one.

"Your points on bike storage are really important First Mate. I can't describe how disappointing I find the council's new 'consultation' on where bike hangers are needed, it feels like yet another delaying tactic. There are 1000s of people on waiting lists, any new hanger fills up immediately, so its clear that the demand is huge and they should be on every street (with those with more flats or houses with no front gardens prioritised".

[exdulwicher]

Your points on bike storage are really important First Mate. I can't describe how disappointing I find the council's new 'consultation' on where bike hangers are needed, it feels like yet another delaying tactic. There are 1000s of people on waiting lists, any new hanger fills up immediately, so its clear that the demand is huge and they should be on every street (with those with more flats or houses with no front gardens prioritised)

A recent FOI to Lambeth Council revealed that their waiting list for bike storage is 11,500 people!

I can only assume that other councils must be similar, especially councils with high % of people in flats.

Part of the problem is the endless rounds of consultation, the fact that installing a cycle hanger often takes away one car parking space which causes no end of anguish.

I (and others on here) have mentioned it previously though, LTNs are PART OF the solution, not the sole solution. To work, you need to be facilitating the modal shift and part of that is secure cycle storage and, outside LTNs, proper cycle lanes. The cycle storage options need to be urgently progressed - that goes for both home storage and options for locking bikes up at shops, workplaces, schools and so on.

Frankly, I do not see that unless you have a side passage or a large house and hallway, this would be an easy bike to store and manoeuvre?

I used to keep two bikes in my study/bedroom in halls of residence. One year, I was on the third floor - no lifts. Appreciate obviously that it would be unworkable for someone of limited mobility or for a heavy e-bike or cargo bike but there are usually SOME options. That Tern that Karim has (nice pics by the way!) has a vertical storage option built into it, you just tip it onto its rear wheel and it sort of self-stands. It also has a built in lockable kickstand for security when parked.

Can see it on their website:

https://www.ternbicycles.com/uk/bikes/472/gsd

[northernmonkey]

Given that Terms are the same size as a normal bike - I'd go with yes they should. If you'd be in a constant state of anxienty re the bike then there is bike insurance too. You have to lock up appropriately but companies such as Laka offer good options on cargo bikes.

In terms of hangers, they are often being placed on DYL. They don't obscure vision like SUVs so can be seen over and so its a practical work around that doesn't need to take up car parking spaces.

I also note the comments on 'people haven't given up their cars' - its right they haven't, but they are switching local journeys to non car. Whilst a Tern is an amazing bike and can do most of the city family requirements, its not a practical option for longer distance journeys to see family outside London etc. More car sharing / better train options all play into this but aren't there now - but none of that affects whether the cargo bike replaces local car journeys and it is this replacement of city driving that we urgently need.

I think that your comments of 'people have enough to deal with now simply trying to earn a living and juggling family commitments' is quite telling, the point of switching to using a bike isn't a 'hair shirt' approach made to feel worthy, but actually a practical and more useful way of getting around a city, with less stress, more time and more activity.

[Rockets]

The council has monumentally failed when it comes to the support infrastructure to enable modal shift - is it any surprise only 3% of the 68% of journeys locally were done on bikes back in 2018? No, because look at Lordship Lane - very few places to secure a bike and the council could, and should, have been doing more to provide the infrastructure to support it.

It's embarrassing. The council got so side-tracked by obsessing over trying to close Dulwich Village to traffic that they took their eye off the ball. Look at how much money they have spent in the village to try to close it to traffic yet people across the wider Dulwich area have been crying out for infrastructure to be put in place so they can store bikes. Over the last 18 months of the pandemic the council's efforts to install bike storage infrastructure has been beyond pathetic.

[Otto2]

Hi First Mate -

Cargo bikes - mine is parked in the living room. I've applied for a cycle hangar to store it outside - they now have hangars to fit them. We do not have a car so, eventually, this seems do-able when the council can provide. I'd buy my own if it were allowed to take up a parking space. The very obvious solution is we buy a van in the meantime and park it in there outside but of course, that is a bit ridiculous.

Not everyone can store a cargo bike - that is for sure. PedalMe is a cargo bike service one can use to move people or goods around. The price of using them is less or in keeping with other motorised vehicles - they have large trailers and can move huge loads. And they also have models that move people - a bike-phobic friend of mine used them recently and felt secure and loved her ride as they are well-trained expert riders!

I think it would be super useful if there was secure bike parking and cargo bike rental/share near Lordship Lane. I think it could be self-sustaining if perhaps a coffee shop and baked goods etc were integrated to add some income streams.

Thanks for the great photos Karim!

[mr.chicken]

Rockets Wrote:

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> It's embarrassing. The council got so side-tracked

> by obsessing over trying to close Dulwich Village

> to traffic that they took their eye off the ball.

> Look at how much money they have spent in the

> village to try to close it to traffic yet people

> across the wider Dulwich area have been crying out

> for infrastructure to be put in place so they can

> store bikes. Over the last 18 months of the

> pandemic the council's efforts to install bike

> storage infrastructure has been beyond pathetic.

Now Rockets, it sounds like you're saying the closures are structurally fine (though plants are expensive) but the council needs to do much more to get the most out of them. If you keep up with this pro LTN, pro bicycle rhetoric, the rest of us might have to reconsider whether you really belong in our Confederacy of Drivers.

[first mate]

I think the crux of the issue is that most may try to do more bicycle journeys but will also need to keep a car. Doesn't feel like there is room for both in any number, cyclists that also keep a car need a parking space. It is also telling that in Amsterdam bikes are now being viewed as a bit of a menace in the same way cars used to be. I guess that is because there are many, many more bikes than there are here.

Yes, we insure our bikes but you know as well as I that bike theft is on the up and insurance will rise accordingly, once companies see an opportunity to make money. I would find it too worrying to leave something that expensive on a regular basis and it would certainly not work for social outings (not that this is an issue in the current climate).

It might seem like I am raising one obstacle after another but the devil is always in the detail. The main thrust of LTNs sounds a bit "this needs to be done, not quite sure how but we'll just punish the heck out of a proportion of the populace and make their lives hell until they roll over, and if we 'kill' em in the process, the end justifies the means.

[Rockets]

It is also very telling that in the Netherlands, despite their love of the bike, they own more cars per capita than we do in the UK.

[heartblock]

Even cycling up to Dulwich Park or Peckham Rye, I have a problem finding a safe place to park the bike (flat types and I don?t like this rain at the moment). I think Southwark needs to think ?carrot? rather than ?stick? if it wants to encourage cycling. Also losing places like the practice football area in Greendale is a shame, so many families take their kids there to practice cycling.

[northernmonkey]

Dulwich park actually has quite a lot of cycle parking now - Peckham rye is less good. Both could use more though. Depends what you're doing. If you're playing tennis or something then yes need racks, if you're going to meet someone then take the bike with you. My view is that the less time your bike is left out of sight the better!

[northernmonkey]

Ps assume you mean slick tyres rather than flat - if not can lend you a track pump!

[karimdiatoubajie]

Hi - just answering some of the questions I got:

Storage

Storage wise - we live in a top floor flat. Luckily we do have outside storage and the Tern GSD can be stored vertically like this:

Dimensions wise, it's a bit deceiving as these have smaller wheels. Its actually the same length as an average adult bike (180cm).

What might make the most sense is having access to shared E-Bikes either through docks or dedicated on street storage.

Cost

These are expensive bikes but I've found that it covers most local trips and would be far cheaper than say a BMW i3 (from ?33,000 - so 7X more expensive) and I can charge the battery at home and when it runs out I can still ride it :)

Also it costs 30X less to run energy wise than an E-Car.

I was luckily able to afford this as I saved ?5900 cycling to work since I used the cycle-to-work scheme to get a Boardman Hybrid in 2011.

This is largely by the bye as I think these would be much better in a shared scheme to bring the price down for everyone and make it more widely accessible to society (and the assets more utilised) and negate the need to store it.

[Pierre]

mr.chicken Wrote:

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> There is nothing at all which could ever reduce

> the amount of traffic. The council should just

> accept that.

>

If this is the case, surely the ones who need to "just accept that" are the people who choose to get stuck in traffic*. If we build bigger roads, we get more and bigger cars. Every time.

* or rather, "you are not stuck in traffic. You are traffic."

[KidKruger]

Surely if we all spend ?4000 on a cargo bike, plus security, safety eqpt and storage costs, we're going to have the Dimness Trope mocking us for our extravagant wallets ?!

[mr.chicken]

heartblock Wrote:

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> Even cycling up to Dulwich Park or Peckham Rye,

Oh careful there my good fellow. Unfortunately you tipped your hand upthread referring to cyclists as "Lycra clad kings of the road" who knock over kids with silly names which makes it sound like you despise cyclists (an eminently reasonable position for someone against LTNs). So I'm confused who should we be against? Cyclists, or just kids with funny names?

I would be very grateful if you could clear this up because I think we should keep our messaging clear, not like the flip-flopping over the slogan on the posters.

[KidKruger]

mr.sarcastic

[first mate]

It does start to become a costly exercise/ "experiment".

KidKruger Wrote:

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> Surely if we all spend ?4000 on a cargo bike, plus

> security, safety eqpt and storage costs, we're

> going to have the Dimness Trope mocking us for our

> extravagant wallets ?!

[rupert james]

If you lived in a three flat victorian conversion or even a 2 up 2 down conversion would you really want this blocking up the entrance hall to 2 flats. Also if you are the landlord would you want this type of bike damaging the fabric of the building when it is stored and moved in and out.

Like many ideas re bikes they are not thought through. Also how will it effect health and safety if Councils can remove pot plants because they block the exit way.

[Earl Aelfheah]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that cargo bikes are for everyone.

[mr.chicken]

rupert james Wrote:

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> Also if you are the landlord would you want

> this type of bike damaging the fabric of the

> building when it is stored and moved in and out.

Absolutely! I think it is important that we keep our priorities straight, and landlords are probably the most important. We cannot take the risk that we might cause them to incur extra costs of doing business, such as providing bike storage or occasional minor repairs. I think it would be much fairer to spread the costs over everyone else instead. And to do that we can should scrap the LTNs right now so the people living in their 3 flat Victorian conversions can take their kids to school in their SUVs without having to worry about costing landlords money because of bicycles.

Also what landlord would want tenants strutting around in Lycra?

I'm astonished that the plight of landlords hasn't received more attention, that just goes to show you how bad the pro-LTN crowd really is.

[Earl Aelfheah]

I do find it kind of weird that the market hasn't found a more efficient model of personal transport in cities. Cars are so incredibly inefficient, both in terms of energy and space. Most streets are absolutely packed with expensive, rarely used, heavily depreciating vehicles. When they do go somewhere (usually 80% empty), most of the energy is used to move the vehicle (rather than the person). And then there are the substantial 'externalities'. And on top of all of it, it's not even a particularly enjoyable or fast way to get around a big city. Any economists out there able to explain it?