LTN: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3

[Otto2]

I've lived in a city with too many cars (NYC) for the amount of road space - a future we are heading towards here in London. This is a complex issue - involving sheer volume of car users, pollution, global warming, the health of people etc - a mix of the above.

In NYC the alternative side of the street parking rules pretty much made owning a car a pain in the *** as one would have to wake up early and move the car to the other side of the street daily and there were never enough spaces for the cars to shift, leading people to sit in their cars for an hour with a cup of coffee to nab one. This pretty much discouraged everyone from thinking they needed a car.

Of course, there was 24 hour good mass transport and the flat rate for it did not punish people on lower incomes that often lived further out - everyone paid the same.

Beyond that - the suburbs - commuters took public transport as parking near the office was too expensive or unavailable.

Bike lanes have gone in in NYC since my time there and there was much outrage, resistance etc but they are starting to bed in and be accepted.

London is a growing city. It needs to make these changes. It is a good city for cycling and walking and most people can change for at least some journeys and that would be a massive good start.

I agree with exdulwicher that "it'll still be a traffic jam" and what you are seeing now is nothing like what you will see if we all carry on - in fact, I'd not call any of this traffic a traffic jam compared to what I've lived through in NYC.

Change is so tricky. But, we must.

[Earl Aelfheah]

ab29 Wrote:

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> "claiming there are too many threads" - you are

> absolutely right Firstmate, arrogant and selfish

> individuals like rahrahrah or Dulwich Central.

>

>

>

> first mate Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > It is interesting to see the various methods

> > adopted by some of the more extreme pro LTN

> > supporters- denial of available evidence,

> > persistent attempts to derail and obfuscate/

> > trolling on threads, trying to stifle views/

> > claiming there are too many threads, and now

> > defacing posters displayed that are objecting

> to

> > the current incarnation of LTNs. It just

> doesn't

> > feel very adult, democratic or like there is a

> > willingness to face the flaws and have a

> rethink.

> >

> > heartblock Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > Yep FirstMate - the report to Southwark

> > includes

> > > an ambulance delayed by the Calton Ave hard

> > > closure adding time to a Cat 2 call on

> > Desenfans

> > > Rd and an inability to use Derwent Road

> because

> > of

> > > a hard closure to avoid heavy traffic on

> Grove

> > > Vale responding to a Cat 1.

> > > The report ends with a request to make

> changes

> > due

> > > to 'previous feedback' and wonders about an

> > > 'update' as 'we still seem be experiencing

> > delays,

> > > that are very concerning and leading to

> patient

> > > safety concerns'

> > >

> > > I know that my paramedic students dislike the

> > hard

> > > closures, they consider them to contribute to

> a

> > > higher risk to life.

Would like to know why you're accusing me of being selfish? I drive, I don't live on an LTN. I'm personally inconvenienced by the road changes, but I also recognise the need to make driving less convenient if we want any chance of reducing the number of journeys. It is possible to have a different view and to debate that without making it about some innate character flaw or resorting to name calling.

[Earl Aelfheah]

...and you don't need to start a new thread every time you want to make a point on LTNS (or any other topic).

[Jooles]

A great contribution. NYC has great leadership and have taken bold measures in recent years. London ranks about 60 in the leaderboard of the top 100 cities for cycling infrastructure. For a world class city this is unacceptable. I wish the anti-LTNers pushed for meaningful change that would help everyone, including those who don't have access to a car. Instead noses are pushed into data analysis, number crunching, car counting (during lockdown which was rather curious) and so on.

We need to look at the bigger picture that safeguards the health and welfare of our children and their children. I'm in my late 60's. I am scrapping my car and save up for a cargo bike as that is the future. And before I get 'not everyone can ride a bike' yes, you're right. If those who can change how they move around this great city of ours do so, then this will make room for those who truly need to drive.

[KidKruger]

Scrapping your car because of Diesel ULEZ enforcement in October 2022, right ?

[first mate]

Jooles, that's great and totally support what you are doing. I am holding onto my car because I genuinely need to use it at times. In those instances, car hire/ public transport is not a viable option. Not all the journeys I have to make are feasible by bicycle, the ones that are I do. I suspect this is the reality for many others. It is complex. The current 'solutions' are overly simplistic and actually creating greater problems for some.

[Nigello]

perhaps those cities at 59 and above are those with fewer winding roads, are smaller, have dissimilar demographics and topography - just because we want London to be like Amsterdam doesn't mean it will be possible. I am all for cycling, reduction in use of motorised vehicles and pedestrian rights (overlooked, in my view) but each city and town should be considered in its own, particular context.

[mfcjoe]

KidKruger Wrote:

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> Scrapping your car because of Diesel ULEZ

> enforcement in October 2022, right ?

Oct/2021, there'll be some bargain diesel's to be had as well.

[first mate]

Nigello, good points and I wonder if you saw the recent Guardian article indicating a pedestrian upsurge against cycling in the city. It seems as though there, at least, cyclists are starting to be treated in similar fashion to car users here.

Again, I think there are very few if any current forum users that do not support reduction of car use and are unlikely to be petrol heads etc.. Those against current implementation of LTNs are signalling that the attendant issues are more complex than is being acknowledged and greater debate/ scrutiny required.

[ianr]

For non-participants, where has this discussion got to so far?

[Earl Aelfheah]

@ab29 - you've suggested I'm arrogant and selfish. Would be good of you to explain that

[Nigello]

Re car v bus v bicycle v walking (or wheeling) = we are all pedestrians/wheelers because even if we have a scooter, e-scooter, Vespa, motorbike, car, lorry, etc. etc., we all use our legs or wheelchair to get around, so we much more attention ought to be paid to the way in which practically every single one of us can choose to get around. Of course, it's generally part of a longer journey (walk/wheel, bus, train, walk again) and not long distance but less space is given in discourse/media to walking/wheeling. With the advent of new Deliveroo-type services for the local supermarket (heaven help us) even fewer walking trips are likely to be made and more motor-powered journeys for deliveries will be made. Reality check - walk more, drive less (and use driven services less).

[Earl Aelfheah]

Just seen that Dulwich alliance are calling for more parking on Lordship Lane whilst also saying there is too much traffic. Surely, there is a fundamental contradiction with trying to reduce traffic whilst also making it easier to drive and providing additional parking? Is it that people want greater car convenience or fewer car journeys? I honestly struggle to see how you get both.

[mr.chicken]

ianr Wrote:

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> For non-participants, where has this discussion

> got to so far?

If I may be so bold as to speak on behalf of anti LTNs, the points we have in favour are:

* The Lycra Clad Kings of the Road are awful so their opinion doesn't count.

* Kids with names we don't approve of (which we shall poke fun at as Chlamydia and Epididymis) also don't count.

* There is both too much and too little traffic on Lordship lane and it was just right before so we should go back to that

* More cars helps ambulances go faster which is why we should replace planters with more open junctions, rather than just install ambulance gates.

* Emergency services will forever be stuck on maps from last year so we can't actually change anything.

* Traffic will get better all by itself.

ETA:

* Also the anti LTN people make the most posts here so we clearly are a democratic majority and anyone who thinks we should stop making new threads is arrogant and selfish.

[LTN BooHoo]

KidKruger Wrote:

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> Scrapping your car because of Diesel ULEZ

> enforcement in October 2022, right ?

No it?s not a diesel. I?m scrapping it because I don?t use it 15 year old and 40,000 miles on it. Not worth it better to car share or ride a pushbike.

[LTN BooHoo]

first mate Wrote:

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> Jooles, that's great and totally support what you

> are doing. I am holding onto my car because I

> genuinely need to use it at times. In those

> instances, car hire/ public transport is not a

> viable option. Not all the journeys I have to make

> are feasible by bicycle, the ones that are I do. I

> suspect this is the reality for many others. It is

> complex. The current 'solutions' are overly

> simplistic and actually creating greater problems

> for some.

Here?s the list. https://www.coya.com/bike/index-2019

Each city has its challenges but no matter how one justifies our woeful infrastructure for bikes we are not doing great. No excuse - we (that?s all of us) must do more if we are going to see real and meaningful change.

[Earl Aelfheah]

@ab29 - feel free to apologise for your completely unnecessary name calling at any time by the way.

[legalalien]

It?s in danger of ceasing being a discussion and taking on the tone of the clashes taking place on Twitter. I despair. Whatever happened to reasoned debate, acknowledging the weaknesses in one?s own argument and pausing for reflection? Call me old fashioned but I find all this playground /trolling stuff a bit of an irritant - I guess that?s the point of it, but I can?t see how it progresses anything.

ianr Wrote:

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> For non-participants, where has this discussion

> got to so far?

[karimdiatoubajie]

Hi Everyone 👋🏾🙇🏾‍♂️

Just thought I'd share some more recent trips from my cargobike experiments all around LTNs incl. Dulwich Village, East/West Dulwich and into Peckham.

These are trips which 12months ago I never, ever thought I would be able to use a bike for.

1. Southwark Recycling Centre

* I have been to this place 18 times since 2014 (src: Google Location Data) every time with a car. On one of those trips I got ?130 fine on Peckham High Street for stopping in a box junction! Lol. Thought I would try hauling a load of cardboard, some fence spikes (in the bags), paint and oil containers and a hairdryer for good measure. Total haul was about 50kg. It took the same amount of time as it used to in a car (assuming smooth run) - only downside was I needed to park at the bottom of the steps. Bikes aren't allowed in the offloading bit. There are likely a few times I will need to use a car here but now I know that at least 80% of my trips here won't use a car now (this was much more fun).

2. Delivering a Sandpit and 20kg of Sand

This was delivering to someone via this forum actually. It was not far but this was heavy. I would definitely have used a car 12 months ago but this was actually much easier and only half a mile. Also no sand in the car. WIN!

3. Buying stuff from garden centres

In my previous post I showed a video getting a Christmas tree from West Dulwich. This time I just picked up a plant. Not even a big one. But because its kind of awkward on normal bike it was super easy on here. I always used a car to go the garden centres around here but actually didn't enjoy it - they have limited parking and its always a bit stressful. If I can carry a tree on this (which I did) then pretty sure I can use my bike 95% of the time.

4. Delivering groceries to vulnerable folks

During lockdown I have been delivering some groceries to folks who have been shielding. Here was a haul of groceries from Sainsburys. Again, I would have used a car for this last year but wouldn't bother now as its too much faff. I also recently discovered that the crates supermarkets use for home deliveries fit perfectly on the rear rack so might invest in a few.

Anyway, I just thought I would give an insight into what might be possible for some people and make it local and relevant. If there are any trips you would like me to test - I can have a go and feedback.

[alice]

I suppose the question would be: has anyone changed their minds about any aspect of Dulwich LTNs?

[Rockets]

An update from One Dulwich.

One Dulwich

Campaign Update | 24 May

Dear all,

The Dulwich Review

Still no rush to fill in the Dulwich Review, which closes online on 11 July. None of the promised supporting data has so far materialised, and some of it won?t be available for weeks.

There are two more online meetings organised by the Council (yesterday?s meeting was just about the basic aims of the Dulwich LTNs) on Wednesday 26 May at 7pm, and Saturday 19 June at 2pm. Tickets are free, but you need to book via the link above.

We have been looking carefully at the survey, and are raising a number of serious problems with Southwark Council. These include:

No specific options put forward for Dulwich Village junction (for example, ANPR cameras) if you want a different solution. This is not what the Council promised.

The high risk of duplicate entries and fraud, as surveys can be completed using just a name, email address and postcode (but no house number). The ?unique identifier? appears to have no purpose ?? we have heard of multiple printed copies with different ?unique identifiers? sent to single-person households.

Data protection and whether questions are age-appropriate: there is no minimum age for filling in the survey and under 16s are encouraged to respond. How will Southwark know whether answers are from a 15-year-old or a two-year-old?

Traffic displacement: there are no specific questions about the traffic displacement that is badly affecting residents and schoolchildren on roads like Croxted Road, East Dulwich Grove, Lordship Lane, Dulwich Common and Underhill Road

We will keep you closely in touch with next steps.

Our fighting fund

The fighting fund we have set up with the Dulwich Alliance has now reached ?13,184. Please continue to spread the word via social media. Donations are being used to print and distribute leaflets and posters, and to progress our legal advice.

Leaflets and posters

Please go to www.dulwichalliance.org and click on the LEAFLETS or POSTERS tab if you?d like further copies. Our new leaflet, highlighting the impact of 24/7 closures and excessive timed restrictions on local businesses, is being delivered to 18,000 homes in the Dulwich LTNs area.

[LTN BooHoo]

Think outside the box and encourage the council to do more not less.

[first mate]

LTNBooHoo. Sometimes less is more.

Karim, where and how do you store your bike? Apologies if you answered this before, I did not see it. The cargo bike looks too big for a hangar, too valuable to be left outside and too big to be left in the hall of average terrace home.

This bike looks like TERN GSD. These are reported as retailing at around ?4000, so storage is important.

[northernmonkey]

@First Mate , you're right in that these bikes are reasonably expensive (though compared to a small car, which they are a genuine replacement option for in a city, they are very cheap and the running costs are significantly lower). More needs to be done on the cost side to offer subsidies for such bikes and community hire schemes of cargo bikes (especially the box type ones) would be particularly useful.

I think its understandable that Karim doesn't want to give precise details of how he personally stores his bike, this might result in a security risk for him. Tern GSDs are brilliant though in that they are not really any bigger than a standard bike, whilst having loads of carrying space. they can also be stored upright so can take up very little room there.

@Karim - thanks for sharing more photos and trips you've been able to swap, its really inspiring and helpful to show that there are alternatives and in most cases they're manageable and quicker.

[Rockets]

LTN BooHoo Wrote:

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> Think outside the box and encourage the council to

> do more not less.

Given the way they have mishandled the existing LTN closures I am not sure they should be encouraged or entrusted to do more. In fact I am not sure many would trust them to do anything anymore. Don't forget the ludicrous plans for Peckham Rye and other areas that they had to scrap at the beginning of this debacle.

It was interesting when our councillors held their ward meeting on the issues, someone said that they were unhappy about having to live with the displacement and one of our councillors said: "Let's discuss whether we can install measures on your road".

It seems the preferred council solution to the chaos these measures cause is to pass it onto someone else.

Maybe this can be the council's new slogan....Southwark...making someone else deal with the problem?