LTN: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3

[DulvilleRes]

@legalalien - the approach you take to this debate is commendable - measured and constructive, and looking for an equitable solution for a diverse set of views. It is definitely the way forward.

I've been somewhat perturbed at some of the heat and noise around this issue, including hearing of someone supportive of the closures having to send a cease and desist letter in response to some of the online vitriol they received. In that context, I'm not sure the degree of personalisation of the issue in some of the posts above with the individual councillors is very helpful.

[alice]

some individual councillors have been quite unpleasant on twitter about individual businesses.

It doesnt make it right.

Councillors look after their own territory that I suppose is understandable. But their thinking should be underpinned by the principles of the political party they represent and a broader cross ward vision.

[first mate]

Dulvilleres,

Don't be surprised. It is the frustration of those who are not as fortunate as you seem to be in terms of the impact of LTNs on their lives, who feel they are not being listened to and have little or no voice in the processes that have led to the implementation of LTNs.

[legalalien]

The battleground has definitely moved onto Twitter and gloves are off on both sides. There are downsides (people become incredibly entrenched in their positions and say stuff they wouldn?t dream of saying in real life, plus a pack mentality develops) and plus sides (connecting people with same experiences and same views who might not connect offline). It seems that we all like to ?take sides? in this day and age - maybe a post-brexit debate habit?

In my opinion some of the things I have seen online from ward councillors has been a bit inappropriate (not OK in terms of suggesting boycotts of local businesses) or has indicated support for particular projects (eg ?Dulwich Square?)- people can express their views on that at the ballot box. I am more concerned about the lack of ward meetings or other attempts at creating a forum for less polarised debate. We need to find a compromise.

DulvilleRes Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> @legalalien - the approach you take to this debate

> is commendable - measured and constructive, and

> looking for an equitable solution for a diverse

> set of views. It is definitely the way forward.

>

> I've been somewhat perturbed at some of the heat

> and noise around this issue, including hearing of

> someone supportive of the closures having to send

> a cease and desist letter in response to some of

> the online vitriol they received. In that context,

> I'm not sure the degree of personalisation of the

> issue in some of the posts above with the

> individual councillors is very helpful.

[slarti b]

@DulwichVillRes

Something not to lose sight of is that those in favour of them aren't necessarily a vocal minority - I've seen no data that backs that assertion up.?

Those in favour aren't a vocal minority? Well, they are certainly a tiny minority.

The justification to close Calton Avenue came from the OHS Phase 2 consultation. According to Southwark Council this showed "strong support" for "radical action" to close Calton Avenue / Court Lane.

So, from Southwark's report, how many people supported that closure? - 164. Not sure how many people there are in the (undefined) consultation area but I would guess several thousand. That sounds like a minority of supporters to me.

But, you may say that consultations should be based just on the percentage of responses rather than the number of people in the consultation area? Well, though the report does it best to conceal that (no graphs) Only 39% of the total respondents supported the closure, not at all convincing support eh?

And where do those minority (both absolute and relative) supporters of the road closure come from? From an analysis of post codes it seems to be an unholy combination of affluent residents in Calton Avenue\Lower end of Court Lane and a range of activists spread thinly across (and outside ) the borough, probably egged on by Soutwark cyclists or similar.

You said "?I personally am strongly in favour of them exactly as they are - they have in my view vastly improved quality of life in Dulwich Village. "

If, like many of the closure supporters, you live in Calton Ave or near the DV\Calton Avenue, that is fully understandable from a purely selfish viewpoint. But have you ever thought about the roads that now have to put up with all the traffic that no longer disturbs you ? Roads such as East Dulwich Grove, Lordship Lane, Croxted Road?

[Otto2]

Re: Legal Alien:

"On a more practical note, I've always thought that a big part of the school run traffic problem is caused by those with children at each of DC/DPL on the one hand, and JAGS/Alleyns on the other, who need to do a double drop and travel through the Village (or now some alternative route) for that purpose. If the schools could arrange for a single drop off point at each end and an active travel option or minibus between one end and the other it might help? Pre closures I always thought that a drop off point in Dulwich Park and then some "walking bus" arrangements from there would be the go."

I agree with Legal Alien. A huge amount of congestion is school rush hour - specifically from the private schools where children often come from further afield and are driven in. Charter kids are selected by distance to the door so they are less the issue. At one point, about ten years ago, a Mum from DPL was trying to start just what you mention Legal Alien - a central drop hub -- it was congested back then. She proposed Dulwich Park and having some bicycles suitable for child transport as well as bicycles children could ride themselves and also, walking but walking is tricky timing-wise when you have to be at two schools at the same time to pick up children. I joined discussion re: this but ultimately, it fell apart as the bike part seemed a hard thing to arrange (by overstretched working mothers) with so many variables (Dulwich Park, Council, Insurance, Storage, Bike Companies, etc). Perhaps councillors and the private schools would like to engage to get this going or brainstorm about other possible solutions.

[legalalien]

Otto 2 - I think in relation to the private schools, it's really the younger/ primary age groups than secondary - when they generally take the train or coach.

[Metallic]

Today the whole area has been affected by circumstances outside the camera zone. We cant help accidents or roadworks but we could help displacing all this traffic on to what amounts to residential roads. It is totally disgraceful.

[Nigello]

Otto2 - "who need to do a double drop" = "who prefer to do a double drop". It really is a matter of choice and convenience vs inconvenience. Nobody NEEDS to do a double drop, it is a need only in his/her own context and set of values, preferences, benefits, disbenefits, etc. Nobody forces people to live miles from schools, buy over-large cars and use them without thought of consequence. It is all a choice. Parents - please consider stopping driving your kids to school: organise car sharing, or at least walk the last mile or so of the journey, etc. It really is down to the individual. Yes, you may need to get up twenty minutes earlier, but that is just a bit tough, really.

(If your child has a disability that reduces mobility, then it is fair enough that you should drive them, likewise if you are ferrying neighbours' kids, that is helping reduce congestion and emissions. Otherwise, you are still part of the problem.)

[sally buying]

"Today the whole area has been affected by circumstances outside the camera zone. We cant help accidents or roadworks but we could help displacing all this traffic on to what amounts to residential roads. It is totally disgraceful."

If you are referring to the repair works on Goose Green roundabout why could this not have been done over the weekend, part 1 and part 2 next weekend instead of the working week. Queues were a nightmare this morning.

Madness or part of a cunning plan?

[Spartacus]

Cunning plan as in putting your underpants on your head, shoving pencils up your nose and saying "wibble"

Although to be fair, I get the impression that's exactly what the council do when they get complaints...

[malumbu]

Reminds me of a chat I had with a colleague a few years ago. Oh we had to move our of this area due to the schools (whilst admitting both partners had gone to a modest state comp). And then we weren't happy with the state schools in our new area (Greenwich) and ended up sending the kids to Alleyns. That was a sample size of one so I expect not everyone who goes to Alleyns lives miles away.

[ED - NAGAIUTB]

sally buying Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> "Today the whole area has been affected by

> circumstances outside the camera zone. We cant

> help accidents or roadworks but we could help

> displacing all this traffic on to what amounts to

> residential roads. It is totally disgraceful."

>

>

> If you are referring to the repair works on Goose

> Green roundabout why could this not have been done

> over the weekend, part 1 and part 2 next weekend

> instead of the working week. Queues were a

> nightmare this morning.

>

> Madness or part of a cunning plan?

The resurfacing of Upland Road (that none of us is sure is needed) is another example of this. Why do this after the schools have just gone back? This is most definitely a theme with Southwark. They skew the playing field to meet their objectives.

Look at the Court Lane/DV junction roadworks. It made the junction worse but when even that wasn't enough to get the 'data' they wanted several people incl some on here predicted that they'd have another crack at it; they did just that. By removing the priority of traffic crossing into Court Lane, they manufactured a bottle neck and lo and behold the junction was jammed up with the slightest hint of traffic. If memory serves it took 3 cars to block the junction at this point.

The cost to Southwark residents for this? Phase 1 was >?1.5 million. Not sure on Phase 2 and then the closure of the junction but I'd say north of ?2 million.

The geography of Dulwich only allows 3 routes through it - South Circ, DV and Herne Hill. Take one away and you add at least 50% additional traffic to those routes (unless people are swapping their cars for unicorns). Then all it takes is a set of road works, an accident and you have gridlock. The week after they closed Court Lane, a motorcyclist was knocked off his bike at the junction of LL & Overhill so LL was shut coming through from the South Circ. It was carnage and a glimpse of what was to come.

If we the residents of Southwark could see it coming then there's no excuse for Southwark to not. Perhaps if Southwark councillors spent less time on Twitter berating local business owners like Franklins and the Melbourne Grove businesses, they'd have more time to do their jobs properly,

[Rockets]

I notice there are signs up along the length of Melbourne Grove about resurfacing plans too.

Tis that time of year where the council spends their roads surplus!

[alice]

They are getting ready for the magnificent new green bus route.

[exdulwicher]

Tis that time of year where the council spends their roads surplus!

While that's a popular myth, the truth is far more practical - winter wrecks the roads so the plans are usually put in place to resurface them in the spring. Resurfacing in winter is much more difficult because of the cold and wet which affects the tarmac laying and leads to more problems later on so the ideal time to do it is spring.

Although you can guarantee that as soon as Southwark's' resurfacing contractors have upped and left, some utilities company will come along and dig it all up again. ;-)

[Spartacus]

exdulwicher Wrote:

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>

> Although you can guarantee that as soon as

> Southwark's' resurfacing contractors have upped

> and left, some utilities company will come along

> and dig it all up again. ;-)

I thought the mayors office had an overview of road works to make sure the same piece of road isn't dug up multiple times by the council and utility companies. 🤔

The myth of end of year spending, possibly right if it's only resurfacing but we've all seen other road or pavement projects pushed through before April (new speed humps pavement replacement, road narrowing or marking replacement) which supports the theory it's end of budget spending as most of those things could and should occur during the year but rarely do as the council keeps money back for emergencies but then has to spend it or lose it.

[exdulwicher]

I thought the mayors office had an overview of road works to make sure the same piece of road isn't dug up multiple times by the council and utility companies. 🤔

If it's a road under TfL control, yes. If it's a road under council control, no.

That said there's a whole raft of guidance, rules, best practice and so on which if you're either really interested in or you're really bored and have nothing better to do is here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/street-works

Also, if there's an emergency situation like a burst water main, all the "coordinating of work" goes out the window.

[malumbu]

Heineken should surely manage all road works

[malumbu]

[Spartacus]

Hmm

Tfl seem to hold the register of all road works http://public.londonworks.gov.uk/roadworks/home

And it's no longer part of southwark's website. Which lends credence to the mayor having overview of all roadworks, not just on tfl roads. (Of course a burst main is an emergency, but whilst the hole is there other planned works can occur)

Ex you do have the same characteristics of a council employee, are you sure your not a southwark patsy?

[ED - NAGAIUTB]

According to a resident I spoke to earlier, Upland Road is being resurfaced in order to replace the smaller (emergency vehicle friendly) red speed bumps with the old style 'sleeping policeman' that runs kerb to kerb.

Seems though that 'some' residents are more worried about the potential damage that traffic passing over these sleeping policemen will cause to their homes (& house prices 'natch) than speedy access for the emergency services.

LAS must think that all of Dulwich has gone stark raving mad.

[exdulwicher]

Ex you do have the same characteristics of a council employee, are you sure your not a southwark patsy?

Haha! Done a lot of work for councils, you just learn how the public sector operates. Some of it is actually surprisingly good. Some of it leaves you banging your head against a desk...

Fair point re the link you posted - most authorities have some form of "open access" roadworks log, I was specifically referencing the "mayors office control" part of your question, sorry for any confusion.

[Roky Erickson]

Why would traffic passing over sleeping policemen cause potential

damage to homes ?

ED - NAGAIUTB Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> Seems though that 'some' residents are more

> worried about the potential damage that traffic

> passing over these sleeping policemen will cause

> to their homes (& house prices 'natch) than speedy

> access for the emergency services.

>

> LAS must think that all of Dulwich has gone stark

> raving mad.

[Spartacus]

Roky, the vibration caused by cars and bigger vehicles passing over humps causes cracks to appear in plaster as the vibration acts like a shock wave.