LTN: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3

[legalalien]

Just following on from Cllr Burgess? statement that the council should involve their public health team in the discussions on LTN strategy, I note that the Health and Well-being Board is meeting next Thursday afternoon and there is a public question time slot. The deadline for questions was midnight yesterday but if anyone has a question might be possible to get it in over the weekend.

ETA link to meeting info http://moderngov.southwark.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=365&MId=6889

This issue seems to be within their remit as air quality is firmly in the existing plan for which they are responsible.

https://www.southwark.gov.uk/health-and-wellbeing/public-health/health-and-wellbeing-in-southwark-jsna/wider-determinants-of-health?chapter=3

[ab29]

Interesting read.

https://www.onlondon.co.uk/paul-wheeler-why-londons-road-wars-are-tearing-labour-apart/

[slarti b]

ab29 Wrote: >Slarti, who are the 2 councillors obsessed with this new vanity project (Plaza)?

Our local Dulwich Village Ward councillors, Cllr's Newens & Leeming, who seem intent on ramming through a scheme which has caused massive division in the Ward and displaced traffic onto Roads like EDG, Croxted and Lordship Lane.

I am naive enought to think the Councillors should be representing all their constituents and trying to reach an acceptable compromise rather than pushing the agenda of minority pressure groups and sending agressive, abusive emails to local who raise valid issues and concerns. Sadly this does not seem to be the case.

As mentioned above, I don't think this should be a pure party political issue; it was interesting that some of the Councillors, at the Scrutiny meeting last week, especially C'llr Burgess, acknowledged issues around disruption, traffic displacement, delays to emergency services and carers. But these are ignored by our representatives.

[Nigello]

Whatever the yays and nays re LTNs, it is very apparent that a large part of traffic (displaced or not) is generated by parents taking their children to school. It is patently obvious this is the case - just walk around the postcode an hour or so around school start and finish times. Most cars I see have one adult and one child, some two. The people driving ought to have a vested interest in the world's future, but no. Whatever happens re LTNs, etc., only people deciding to stop making journeys (which will cost them in terms of convenience, time in bed, etc.) will help. The rest is just tinkling at the edges.

The council ought to be making sure that pavements are in good nick, that footpath riders/cyclists be deterred, that lights are sufficient and kerbs kept free of ponding, etc. This would be relatively easy to achieve and maintain, but it is not as right-on as confecting ersatz community vibes with promise of retro-style village squares, etc.

I am for the reduction of traffic and for LTNs in principle (though not for everywhere and, ideally, controlled with cameras and timed) but super serving Dulwich Village and all of Melbourne Grove, for example, isn't on.

[heartblock]

It?s definitely ?school? drop off that causes the extensive periods of idling traffic on EDG, I?m working from home at present, so did a little look out the window check...so many cars actually stopping in the traffic jam to let their one child out of the car to walk 2 mins to Alleyn?s and JAGs. Also lots of buggy bikes and bikes on the pavement. Southwark need to consider some of the options you allude to Nigello.

A bike lane/widened pavement on the LL to Half Moon cross roads would be in the main direction of the vehicle queue and maybe lights at the EDG/LL junction and a pedestrian crossing there, could be timed to discourage cars down EDG from 7:30 to 9:00 and pick up time but allow buses, school coaches, bikes etc to go down on a green filter? Croxted may have other causes than LTNs and the school run.

[first mate]

Assuming it is mainly young children being dropped off, how many parents would let young children cycle alone to and from school? If the idea is parents accompany the children to a fro, then how many are prepared or even able to do that? On a balmy summer's day this may work but when it is dark, cold and rainy I doubt it. Fine if you are very local to the school but I understand these serve the whole borough and beyond?

Also, Charter ED is right next to a large medical centre. That centre states it serves not only the borough but wider London and the UK. Patients and staff may be unable to cycle, walk or use public transport. I'd have thought the medical centre would require vehicle access at any time?

LTNs make sense if everything is local, that is work, schooling, shopping, building services etc, if not I fail to see how these can ever really work.

[heartblock]

When everything was open most Charter school kids appeared to get buses and trains and walk..from the stop, the entrance is on Melbourne (which is now an LTN), I used to walk past there quite often when not working from home. If I walked the other way to go to work via Herne Hill station rather than ED there were coaches and many, many cars dropping off at Alleyn?s and JAGs. The LTNs are indeed badly planned in Southwark, especially around EDG which is as you say is a school street and has a health centre. Unfortunately I think Southwark has dug in it?s heels and the LTNs will not be removed despite the obvious impact of more pollution on residential school roads.

[Nigello]

Children in Japan, amongst other places, which has a climate that is on the whole more severe than ours, both summer and winter can be seen walking, taking the bus or train, to school from very early ages. More of that, please, here.

[Concerned2021]

I was quite happy letting my primary school children walk to school alone from year 5. Sadly my road is taking more traffic due to closed roads and has become dangerous. The council have done nothing to enforce speed limits and I now worry for their safety and often walk them across despite now being at secondary school. We often have to wait 5 minutes for a safe gap to cross. This should be the priority for councils. Incidentally this is a road with a school road off it and multiple primary schools so kids crossing both ways.

[Spartacus]

This was reposted by "open our roads"and whilst it reflects Waltham Forest it also shows all London boroughs.

Time for local councils to wake up to the issues the LTNs are causing and the very real risk of paramedics not getting to people in time.

 

[Penguin68]

Southwark apparently jumped from 18 such incidents in the six months before Covid-19 to 46 in the equivalent 6 months last year (June to November). That is an increase of 255% (two and a half times). And statistically (very) significant!

[first mate]

Unless virtually all amenities and necessities necessary for modern living become localised, including schools, I really do not see how this can change in any significant way. Additionally, Southwark seem to support electric cars. Are these really much less dangerous?

I do recall a cycling campaigner inferring that unless you worked locally and could cycle everywhere you should move. This is the level of attachment to belief systems around societal and transport remodelling.

Concerned2021 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I was quite happy letting my primary school

> children walk to school alone from year 5. Sadly

> my road is taking more traffic due to closed roads

> and has become dangerous. The council have done

> nothing to enforce speed limits and I now worry

> for their safety and often walk them across

> despite now being at secondary school. We often

> have to wait 5 minutes for a safe gap to cross.

> This should be the priority for councils.

> Incidentally this is a road with a school road off

> it and multiple primary schools so kids crossing

> both ways.

[Concerned2021]

I work for the NHS and have to drive to carry bulky equipment. I will certainly be looking to leave London as soon as my children finish school. Driving and managing the impacts of this is becoming increasingly stressful.

[DulvilleRes]

Clearly there are a lot of strong feelings generated by the road closures.

Something not to lose sight of is that those in favour of them aren't necessarily a vocal minority - I've seen no data that backs that assertion up. I personally am strongly in favour of them exactly as they are - they have in my view vastly improved quality of life in Dulwich Village. I love the plaza, and my kids love the fact that it looks like at last the community is starting to do something serious about the dominance of car culture. This is a view reflected by a lot of people I know. But I wouldn't extrapolate that perception into some kind of assertion one way or another as to what the majority view is.

[first mate]

We cannot afford to be losing health professionals. I am certain you are not alone in feeling like this.

Concerned2021 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I work for the NHS and have to drive to carry

> bulky equipment. I will certainly be looking to

> leave London as soon as my children finish school.

> Driving and managing the impacts of this is

> becoming increasingly stressful.

[alice]

Of course those that benefit are more likely to be in favour. It is a pity that a strong Labour ward can see social injustice as a fair price for their improved ?quality of life?.

I say there can be no quality without equality.

[Spartacus]

DulvilleRes Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Clearly there are a lot of strong feelings

> generated by the road closures.

>

> Something not to lose sight of is that those in

> favour of them aren't necessarily a vocal minority

> - I've seen no data that backs that assertion up.

> I personally am strongly in favour of them exactly

> as they are - they have in my view vastly improved

> quality of life in Dulwich Village. I love the

> plaza, and my kids love the fact that it looks

> like at last the community is starting to do

> something serious about the dominance of car

> culture. This is a view reflected by a lot of

> people I know. But I wouldn't extrapolate that

> perception into some kind of assertion one way or

> another as to what the majority view is.

Are you prepared to put your assumption on support to a formal fair open consultation that involves those who live on roads now carrying excessive traffic caused by LTNs?

It's got to be fair for all, not just a minority

[legalalien]

What's odd is that most of the people I know, including those living inside the DV LTN, are not in favour. So we all clearly live in our own social (rather than geographic) bubbles, and make assumptions that may or may not be correct. This division of opinion is not one between those living inside and those living outside the LTN, by any means.

So yes, formal, fair, open. BUT at the end of the day, we have to recognise that this is probably not going to be determined by some sort of referendum process (consultation is about ensuring enough info is gathered to enable the decision maker to make a proper decision - it's not a popularity contest).

I have been reflecting on this, and think that in some ways, an on the ground experiment is possibly more equitable than formal consultation, absent a super-efficient engagement and consultation process. Those who would not normally engage in a consultation exercise become aware of the costs/benefits that the experimental proposal brings and that then enables them to be part of the discussion before a final decision is made. But that sort of experiment has to be nimble/ deal with detrimental effects quickly/ be very transparent and completely open to "tweaks". That's not what we are seeing in practice, I don't think.

On a more practical note, I've always thought that a big part of the school run traffic problem is caused by those with children at each of DC/DPL on the one hand, and JAGS/Alleyns on the other, who need to do a double drop and travel through the Village (or now some alternative route) for that purpose. If the schools could arrange for a single drop off point at each end and an active travel option or minibus between one end and the other it might help? Pre closures I always thought that a drop off point in Dulwich Park and then some "walking bus" arrangements from there would be the go.

[ab29]

DulvilleRes Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Clearly there are a lot of strong feelings

> generated by the road closures.

>

> Something not to lose sight of is that those in

> favour of them aren't necessarily a vocal minority

> - I've seen no data that backs that assertion up.

> I personally am strongly in favour of them exactly

> as they are - they have in my view vastly improved

> quality of life in Dulwich Village. I love the

> plaza, and my kids love the fact that it looks

> like at last the community is starting to do

> something serious about the dominance of car

> culture. This is a view reflected by a lot of

> people I know. But I wouldn't extrapolate that

> perception into some kind of assertion one way or

> another as to what the majority view is.

How anyone can enjoy this knowing that other peoples' lives have been very badly affected is beyond me.

[ED - NAGAIUTB]

ab29 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> DulvilleRes Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Clearly there are a lot of strong feelings

> > generated by the road closures.

> >

> > Something not to lose sight of is that those in

> > favour of them aren't necessarily a vocal

> minority

> > - I've seen no data that backs that assertion

> up.

> > I personally am strongly in favour of them

> exactly

> > as they are - they have in my view vastly

> improved

> > quality of life in Dulwich Village. I love the

> > plaza, and my kids love the fact that it looks

> > like at last the community is starting to do

> > something serious about the dominance of car

> > culture. This is a view reflected by a lot of

> > people I know. But I wouldn't extrapolate that

> > perception into some kind of assertion one way

> or

> > another as to what the majority view is.

>

> How anyone can enjoy this knowing that other

> peoples' lives have been very badly affected is

> beyond me.

The very "vocal minority" they claim there is no data to prove exists..!!

Also, just how short sighted are these people?? Life in (the already highly afluent and leafy) DV has been improved. How did they ever manage before (clutches pearls..)

The disconnection between them and us is like something out of a Victorian nightmare.

[legalalien]

Just don?t fall into the trap - it really isn?t ?them and us? based on geography.

I repeat - plenty of people on the inside of the DV LTN are opposed to it. The local councillors need to understand that, and suggesting that everyone ?inside? is a supporter doesn?t help in convincing them that this is the case.

[Concerned2021]

Thank you. I?ve raised this point before. Did the pandemic not reveal how much we rely on our key staff? It was already difficult to recruit and retain staff within the NHS and these policies will bring us to our knees. The current closures are unjust and damaging. Roads need to be reopened as a matter of urgency and alternatives considered that are fair to all and do not jeopardise our key services or economy.

Just a few thoughts about alternatives. I?m prepared to be shouted down.

1. London wide CpZ which are fairly priced and linked to council tax banding. All London residents to be given a particular number of permits per week which can be used anywhere e.g. 2 per week. These can be used for journeys within London. Any unused permits can be cashed in at the end of the year creating an incentive to use permits for the most essential journeys or not use a car at all if there is another choice. They will also promote car sharing. Key staff who need their car for work purposes to be given permits during working hours only. Additional permits and exemptions for informal carers and those with disabilities, for those with children under 5 etc.

2. Charges to drive in and out of London again with options for exemptions for those that need to do so for essential work or carer roles or who live within a certain distance from the boundaries.

3. Continue to consider cycle paths in key places.

4. Improved public transport which should be quicker due to less cars on the road.

5. If LTN?s are considered thus should be done by a neutral panel to ensure that councillors or those with power do not influence decisions. These should only made permanent if they can show a 50 per cent reduction in car ownersship during the trial period.

6. Ban Amazon Prime - far too many delivery vans, particularly on main roads and bus routes.

As I say i?m prepared to be shouted down but we need to think about measures that reduce car use on ALL roads and which consider need to drive. LTN?s are wrong and damaging on so many levels.

[legalalien]

I agree with you Concerned 2021. Particularly re the Amazon Prime thing. It's so tempting! But really, one Amazon delivery per street per week would be fine. I've never used Uber and am trying to do a non-Deliveroo thing from now on - and am only using Amazon for things that I cannot get locally. I'd be happy with eg "Amazon Thursday" on my street.

[DulwichCentral]

Is it traffic jams of 'key staff' driving around in their SUVs at the weekend?

[Concerned2021]

Doubt it. I have a mini. I don?t know anyone with an SUV - not very economical, too big and difficult to park. Possibly those that live in an LTN, work from home and haven?t had to leave their house for a week since they have home deliveries. Maybe fancy a run out to the garden centre or for a walk in the countryside....?