LTN: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3

[Rockets]

Has anyone else noticed that Dulwich Square is fast becoming a skate park.....am I the only one to think that this might test the community minded spirit of some of the Square's most vocal supporters.....?;-)

I wonder how long it will be before the signs get changed to...Open To....bikes, pedestrians, buggies, scooters (but not stunt scooters or skateboards)

[slarti b]

Dulwich Square? Never heard of it :-) But yes, I have noticed the skate boarders at teh closed off DV junction.

Personally I think it is much healthier and nicer for the kids there than on the old Harvester site next to the South Circular. Definitely to be encouraged.

[ruffers]

You could create a kick start style motorbike trials course over the planters - that would be great.

[Metallic]

The hated name, Dulwich Square, has had photos of snow and children playing in it, do people not realise this is still an open junction? I'm surprised there haven't been any cycle/pedestrian accidents, or maybe they are being unpublicised to help the LTN supporters create an idyllic vision?

[malumbu]

Rocks - really sad with your sentiment - Covid has been a massive catalyst for modal shifts in transportation but soon, hopefully, things will begin to return to some semblance of normality and those modal shifts will swing back when people's world's begin extending.

I expect that no amount of bleeding heart ice caps melting stuff will change your view. Hopefully others will have a different approach to travel, and reduce car use, in a post lockdown world. It's a joy to see so many people out in or parks. Let's celebrate it.

Here's some reading about how obese we are as a nation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity_in_the_United_Kingdom

[Bicknell]

@malumbu there was that report a few years ago that showed people in dulwich already made mmost short journeys on foot. cycling about average, but walking much higher. Public transport lower than average because the service isnt good round here. P4 should be more reliable.

[Rockets]

@malumbu - good try, no cigar I am afraid....it's clear all I was hoping for was a return to some semblance of normality in relation to Covid - not traffic levels.

I refer you to my earlier point...

@Malumbu

Your increasingly spiteful de-positioning of anyone who has a view differing to your own on this subject speaks volumes: it suggests you don't have a valuable contribution or rational argument for the points being raised so have descended to name calling and accusatory finger pointing at people you don't know anything about. A bit childish don't you think?

[ab29]

Agree with your Rockets; and this person doesn't even live in Southwark, let alone Dulwich so not sure why he/she is so active on this forum.

Rockets Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> @malumbu - good try, no cigar I am afraid....it's

> clear all I was hoping for was a return to some

> semblance of normality in relation to Covid - not

> traffic levels.

>

> I refer you to my earlier point...

>

> @Malumbu

> Your increasingly spiteful de-positioning of

> anyone who has a view differing to your own on

> this subject speaks volumes: it suggests you don't

> have a valuable contribution or rational argument

> for the points being raised so have descended to

> name calling and accusatory finger pointing at

> people you don't know anything about. A bit

> childish don't you think?

[Earl Aelfheah]

As an aside, does anyone know who is behind all the ?one? campaigns? They seem to be connected and I would be very surprised if there wasn?t some astroturfing going on frankly.

[Abe_froeman]

The irony of the white men in lycra that are behind the LTNs complaining about other people astroturfing, FFS!

[slarti b]

rahrahrah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> As an aside, does anyone know who is behind all the ?one? campaigns? They seem to be connected and

> I would be very surprised if there wasn?t some astroturfing going on frankly.

You can check out the number and location of One Dulwich supporters on their web site her https://www.onedulwich.uk/supporters

Can you provide the same for SOutwark Cyclists, or Clean Air Dulwich ?

[legalalien]

No idea, I wonder whether they are knowledge sharing / coordinating on FoI requests to central agencies such as TfL and cutting costs by sharing legal advice... would make sense/ be more efficient.

[exdulwicher]

As an aside, does anyone know who is behind all the ?one? campaigns? They seem to be connected and I would be very surprised if there wasn?t some astroturfing going on frankly.

A very opaque mix of LDTA, UKIP, various twitter bots and pro-driving campaigns like FairFuel UK and The ABD. Because issues like LTNs have becomes so politically divisive, it's become a very easy target for right-wing campaign groups that find it easy to pick on populist issues.

Plus a genuine mix of local residents, many of whom will think it's purely a local group started by local residents with concerns.

If you delve deeply enough into the Twitter feeds of them you can find the key accounts that follow them all, retweet them and contribute to them; it's usually only a dozen or so people behind them all plus some bots. The wording on the "about us" gives it away, it's virtually identical across the board even for groups outside London. Apolitical, members from all walks of life, holistic solutions... It's almost word-for-word.

There's a reference in this article about the overall secrecy behind the One... groups (this one specific to One Oval)

https://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2020/08/save-oval-streets-hits-back-at-oneovals-misleading-information-about-emergency-access-to-the-the-oval-triangle-ltn/

[Abe_froeman]

I guess Ex Duliwch 's cycling helmet is made out of tinfoil

[legalalien]

I wouldn?t read too much into the ?about us? clue - more likely that a local group has cut and pasted the wording from a website it?s seen. When e-commerce first became a thing, copying website terms and privacy notices from existing websites was rife amongst small / independent traders...

[Spartacus]

Abe_froeman Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I guess Ex Duliwch 's cycling helmet is made out

> of tinfoil

Lol

Now I've got that image in my head as he cycles furiously to avoid being "taken" for an Anal probe covid test

Sorry ex , merging the image and another thread in my imagination ...

[malumbu]

I sense rebellion is in the air, but thought it would be worth reflecting on previous campaigns. Generally mass protest makes very little difference - Gulf War 2, Greenham, road protests and the like. Poll tax would have been scrapped in any case so that didn't need mass civil disobedience. Even the 'right to roam' took two generations to come to fruition. https://www.ramblers.org.uk/get-involved/campaign-with-us/past-campaigns/right-to-roam-crow.aspx

Sadly the campaigns that had the most effect have been most detrimental to our environment and a move away from the car, the fuel protest (unholy alliance between hauliers and farmers) and the petition against road user charging. Blair's government and those since are afraid to demonise drivers which means local authorities have to do the dirty work.

Two more interesting articles about protest: https://www.transporttimes.co.uk/news.php/Can-National-Road-Pricing-Survive-Real-Politics-604/?utm_source=Transport+Times&utm_campaign=09c31d1fa4-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_10_30_11_03_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_c0cafa3f39-09c31d1fa4-250793593 about road pricing, and https://www.plutobooks.com/9780745340593/roads-runways-and-resistance/?utm_source=Transport+Times&utm_campaign=09c31d1fa4-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_10_30_11_03_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_c0cafa3f39-09c31d1fa4-250793593

[Rockets]

Local authorities are making such a pig's ear of these measures that they are turning the majority against them so you can scratch them off the "dirty work" list from here on in I suspect. This is going to cost votes and that, ultimately, is what decides the fate of any idea or plan. Those councillors who were the loudest advocates of the LTNs seem to have lost their voice over the last couple of months and don't seem to keen to grandstand over Dulwich Square and other areas - that is very telling. Even chief LTN advocate in chief Peter Walker seems to have moved on to other things.

[malumbu]

So what do you think about the articles I attached Rocks? Go on, read them and educate yourself. Happy to debate that sort of stuff, and perhaps a campaign for what you like rather than what you don't.

[Rockets]

Malumbu - let's back up a little. What point are you trying to land with those links? One is a potted history of the Rambler's Association right to roam battle, one is an article on road usage (that I agree with entirely) and one is a link to a book. Are you not meandering a bit off-topic here - this thread is on Our Healthy Streets so I am not sure what point you are trying to make - there's a perfectly good debate (one which you fervently try to engage with but other than name-calling never actually do) here - you seem obsessed with trying to take the conversation away from the subject in hand.

And on the subject of name-calling you're doing it again and descending into your usual dismissive de-positioning stance referring to "educating yourself". By default that suggests you don't think I am educated.

[alice]

Did everyone except me know the council were discussing Dulwich Alliances proposal in a cabinet meeting today.

[legalalien]

I knew the petition was on the agenda, but didn't tune in to watch - I suspected it would be noted and some sort of comment made about an upcoming review. Did anyone attend/ see it? Looks like the meeting is on youtube https://www.youtube.com/user/southwarkcouncil

[legalalien]

Worth watching the youtube clip. Think it's worth keeping a close eye on the process, seems the commonspace responses are less important now that they oppose the scheme: the councillor response seemed very scripted. There will be some sort of "targeted" survey of residents' experience and perception to be included, amongst other things, and safety rather than active transport looks like the new focus. (Seen through my own prism - watch it yourself, like everyone I come to it with my own biases).

[Earl Aelfheah]

As a pedestrian I spend half my time having to walk in the road. There is so little room for those on foot or on bike. You look up and down most streets and can see how much space is given over to car storage and car lanes. Cars are literally everywhere. I can?t understand who thinks that too much space is being allocated to cycling and walking and not enough to motor vehicles.

[northernmonkey]

That certainly was 'through your own prism' Legalalien!

Having watched the replay of cllr Rose's comments, I don't think that the takeaway from her comments was that 'the commonplace is less important now the comments oppose the scheme' - rather that it is a tool that reflects comments from people at a point in time and that some will reflect particular one off issues or things that have since been addressed, other will be more constant concerns and so it is raises issues that should be considered in the Council's review.

I suspect that her comments were framed in relation to the frankly laughable way that the Dulwich Alliance 'study' has tried to use the data to infer an overall approval rating for the scheme! No one can tell whether 10 people left one comment, or one person left 10 (and that's just one of many issues with the conclusions reached) so attempts to use the data in this way are at best the equivalent of an amateurish school project or at worst a disingenuous attempt to manipulate to support their group aims!