LTN: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3

[Dulwichgirl82]

The congestion likely has lots of causes but surely seeing how much worse traffic is one of two things can be concluded

A) the congestion is from other causes than the LTN and therefore it hasn?t discouraged traffic/car use in the area and so has failed in its purpose

Or

B) Road closures are contributing to the worsening traffic on certain roads, again indicating a failure of purpose

Assuming of course that the purported purpose is to reduce traffic for everyone not just those living or using an LTN road which is Clearly not everyone. If it?s to protect school routes then school streets achieve this and only apply to some of the closed roads.

[Metallic]

enpointe Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> roywj Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Surprising how many drivers are still going

> > through the Village and Townley road during the

> > closure times. I wonder how much each fine

> costs

> > and how many have been fined already.

>

>

> I?m not sure there are any cameras despite signs

> that there are - I haven?t seen any when I?ve

> walked through the village near the top of Gallery

> Road. A friend drove through a couple of weeks

> during the restricted times and hasn?t received a

> fine.

They are up the streetlamp pole by the entrance to the Chapel gardens, one facing Burbage Road and the other north up Dulwich Village.

[James Barber]

Hi first mate,

I have supported CPZ around East dulwich station for 1 hour per day Mon-Fri 11-noon.

I was the chair of Southwark Cyclists 20 yers ago and still cycle. I still have a driving licence as well.

Some historic local full road closures have made a material positive difference - Thorncombe Road, Gilkes Crescent, Friearn Road

Or partial e.g. Oxonian/Zenoria.

New style of this LTN appear to be seeing dramatic increase in people and walking. Causing immense frustration for those that wish to keep driving or neighbouring A and B roads in the area.

Is this balance right?

[Metallic]

James Barber Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Hi first mate,

> I have supported CPZ around East dulwich station

> for 1 hour per day Mon-Fri 11-noon.

> I was the chair of Southwark Cyclists 20 yers ago

> and still cycle. I still have a driving licence as

> well.

>

> Some historic local full road closures have made a

> material positive difference - Thorncombe Road,

> Gilkes Crescent, Friearn Road

> Or partial e.g. Oxonian/Zenoria.

>

> New style of this LTN appear to be seeing dramatic

> increase in people and walking. Causing immense

> frustration for those that wish to keep driving or

> neighbouring A and B roads in the area.

> Is this balance right?

Can I butt in and say that isn't completely right? All the pro-LTN people don't think of the thousands who work in small businesses, or services, and now have massive journeys to make. My road may be quiet but the displaced traffic from a closed junction has repercussions everywhere. WE LIVE IN A CITY not some idyllic little Sussex village. It drives me mad that no one in the council or the pro lobby can think of others at all. Or care about them. Lordship Lane is now a polluted traffic jam and the businesses are suffering. No doubt the Dulwich Village shops will tell you the same as they are locked away from passing trade for five hours a day.

I wish the Council and pro people would GET REAL. Spare a thought for one man businesses and what they face. Southwark Council just makes me so annoyed.

[malumbu]

From the RAC Report on Motoring 2020 published today -sorry I haven't got a link yet. Sad reflection on motorist's views as a whole re the environment. If we can all take a bit more responsibility we wouldn't be having many of the discussions on this thread:

The 2020 Report on Motoring asked motorists what steps they would be willing to take ? or are already taking ? to reduce their personal emissions? footprints. This year, fewer drivers would be willing to swap their cars for bikes or e-scooters on short journeys in order to cut their emissions: only 36% would be happy to do this, or are already doing this, compared with 39% last year.

As we have discussed in section 1.2, the pandemic has led to a greater feeling of importance attached to vehicles ? in part due to fears of the infection risk linked to public transport. Accordingly, there has been a sharp decline in the number of motorists who would be willing to give up using their vehicles altogether for environmental reasons: only 5% say they would consider this, compared with 14% last year.

[Spartacus]

Here's a thought that's been rattling around my empty head over the weekend

Southwark want to reduce car ownership to a very low proportion of what it is today, and the LTNs are their second salvo in making it a 15 minute city.

There is some consideration for electric vehicles but the council aim to keep that down to car clubs and less emphasis on private ownership.

If people are discouraged from buying electric vehicles in this manner, and it's replicated by other councils, then isn't there a risk that manufactures won't be encouraged to invest in developing electric engines thus costs won't come down and the overall benefits they could provide will be negated by people trying to keep their old fossil fuel engined vehicles for longer ?

This will potentially have knock on effects to other forms of transport and the development of more efficient, cleaner power units.

Only by providing a business model where the manufacturing companies make sales and can afford to invest thus bringing the price down will we see leaps in technology but if no one is buying cars then it's not going to have the gains we all want.

Looking at the councils policy, one is tempted to ask are they the new Luddites ?

[exdulwicher]

No doubt the Dulwich Village shops will tell you the same as they are locked away from passing trade for five hours a day.

There's this myth that "passing trade" is only motorists (as though everyone driving through Dulwich Village is randomly spotting Proud Sow Butchers or The Art Stationers and thinking "oh wow, I'll just park up and pop in for a steak here and some paintbrushes there!")

Trade comes from people - that's kind of the basis of out of town shopping centres and pedestrianised high streets. How people get there is certainly a discussion point but basically, trade is people. If you make it more attractive for people to hang around the area then they'll stay longer and spend more. There are already several studies showing that cyclists and pedestrians spend more:

https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2018/november/getting-more-people-walking-and-cycling-could-help-save-our-high-streets

That's been seen elsewhere in the UK and abroad as well.

If people are discouraged from buying electric vehicles in this manner, and it's replicated by other councils, then isn't there a risk that manufactures won't be encouraged to invest in developing electric engines thus costs won't come down and the overall benefits they could provide will be negated by people trying to keep their old fossil fuel engined vehicles for longer ?

The EV industry is worth billions and it's growing at a rapid rate. It won't be defined by a few people buying or not buying EVs or hybrids compared to schemes like car clubs, fleet vehicles, industry and subsidiaries like electric bikes and scooters. There's a wider issue as to what impact Brexit will have on the car industry and that is still very uncertain.

[Rockets]

malumbu Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> From the RAC Report on Motoring 2020 published

> today -sorry I haven't got a link yet. Sad

> reflection on motorist's views as a whole re the

> environment. If we can all take a bit more

> responsibility we wouldn't be having many of the

> discussions on this thread:

>

> The 2020 Report on Motoring asked motorists what

> steps they would be willing to take ? or are

> already taking ? to reduce their personal

> emissions? footprints. This year, fewer drivers

> would be willing to swap their cars for bikes or

> e-scooters on short journeys in order to cut their

> emissions: only 36% would be happy to do this, or

> are already doing this, compared with 39% last

> year.

>

> As we have discussed in section 1.2, the pandemic

> has led to a greater feeling of importance

> attached to vehicles ? in part due to fears of the

> infection risk linked to public transport.

> Accordingly, there has been a sharp decline in the

> number of motorists who would be willing to give

> up using their vehicles altogether for

> environmental reasons: only 5% say they would

> consider this, compared with 14% last year.

Was that the report that was published in November? This one: https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/features/report-on-motoring-2020/

Not sure it is "a sad reflection of motorist's views" but more a balanced report on what people are telling the RAC about their car usage in light of the pandemic. It does highlight some worrying trends in terms of view towards public transport (but remember this is a national survey) but I would say that in light of reports like this it is incredibly important that the council takes such things into account - pursuing the LTN policy in light of reports like this demonstrate that the impacts of LTNs could actually get a lot worse when life starts getting back to some sense of normality. The report clearly shows that fewer people are using their cars at the moment but more expect to use their cars more when things return to normal.

Interesting quote taken from that report - nice to see that even the RAC is taking a more balanced approach to these issues (despite them being a driver lobby group) and taking input from many and not presenting it as a myopic approach - it would be remiss of me not to say that it would be nice if the pro-LTN lobby groups took a similar approach...;-)

"It?s encouraging to see car dependency has fallen this year and that walking has replaced shorter journeys for many people. But in order to lock in this reduction and its benefits as we begin to travel around again, the Government must urgently address the perception of public transport and do more to encourage people out of their cars. To do this, there need to be policy and fiscal measures to improve public transport, alongside actively promoting and incentivising more sustainable forms of transport, particularly in the post-Covid era.

Darren Shirley, Chief executive, Campaign for Better Transport

[heartblock]

Dreadful traffic on East Dulwich Grove right now, standing traffic from LL up to the lights, horrid for cyclists, horrid for anyone walking, horrid and dangerous to residents, must be due to road works, Christmas tree sale, it being Friday...um....

[DulwichCentral]

Rockets if I may say so you are contradicting yourself.

You accept higher attachment to cars during a pandemic is due to fear of infection on public transport.

But then you say: 'reports like this demonstrate that the impacts of LTNs could actually get a lot worse when life starts getting back to some sense of normality.' How come? When life starts getting back to 'some sense of normality' people will return to public transport.

The LTNs will still be there as safe routes for those who want to cycle or walk - and the RAC motorists will start considering getting on a bike or walking again - especially if there are safe cycle routes for them to do so :)

[exdulwicher]

It's dreadful everywhere. Pull up a Google Maps of London with the traffic layer enabled, everything is red. Not quite sure why yet unless everyone has taken this opportunity to go out for some Brexit stockpiling and before London moves into Tier 3 at midnight on Tuesday night/Wednesday morning.

Desperate last rush.

[DulwichCentral]

exdulwicher Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It's dreadful everywhere. Pull up a Google Maps of

> London with the traffic layer enabled, everything

> is red. Not quite sure why yet unless everyone has

> taken this opportunity to go out for some Brexit

> stockpiling and before London moves into Tier 3 at

> midnight on Tuesday night/Wednesday morning.

>

> Desperate last rush.

Oh No it isn't! its the Christmas tree in Dulwich square ;););)

[Dulwichgirl82]

Dulwich central what about those people for which their routes don?t happen to take them to/from dulwich village... where are their ?safe routes?? Covered in pollution from the spillover from the closed roads?

Also unless you know something the rest of us don?t these experimental measures are due to be reviewed so the current LTNs may well not be there, at least in their current format?

DulwichCentral Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Rockets if I may say so you are contradicting

> yourself.

>

> You accept higher attachment to cars during a

> pandemic is due to fear of infection on public

> transport.

>

> But then you say: 'reports like this demonstrate

> that the impacts of LTNs could actually get a lot

> worse when life starts getting back to some sense

> of normality.' How come? When life starts getting

> back to 'some sense of normality' people will

> return to public transport.

>

> The LTNs will still be there as safe routes for

> those who want to cycle or walk - and the RAC

> motorists will start considering getting on a bike

> or walking again - especially if there are safe

> cycle routes for them to do so :)

[Rockets]

DulwichCentral Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Rockets if I may say so you are contradicting

> yourself.

>

> You accept higher attachment to cars during a

> pandemic is due to fear of infection on public

> transport.

>

> But then you say: 'reports like this demonstrate

> that the impacts of LTNs could actually get a lot

> worse when life starts getting back to some sense

> of normality.' How come? When life starts getting

> back to 'some sense of normality' people will

> return to public transport.

>

> The LTNs will still be there as safe routes for

> those who want to cycle or walk - and the RAC

> motorists will start considering getting on a bike

> or walking again - especially if there are safe

> cycle routes for them to do so :)

I am afraid I am not: the report says that 49% of drivers are driving less now than they did a year ago (due to the pandemic and home working) but they expect to drive more when the pandemic finally comes to an end. So, if we are seeing the level of congestion being caused by the LTN closures then imagine what it will be like when it's over - and the report states that fear of returning to public transport is the key catalyst for those people returning to their cars.

Making the assumption that all of those people will drive or walk is the warped logic that is creating these problems in the first place....

[slarti b]

exDulwicher "[the traffic is] dreadful everywhere. Pull up a Google Maps of London with the traffic layer enabled, everything is red. Not quite sure why yet..."

Most central and London Boroughs have used Covid funding to introduce LTN's and road closures with minimal, if any consultation or consideration of the effects. . Maybe that is the reason for the increased congestion ?

[malumbu]

Link to the report https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/features/report-on-motoring-2020/ I've got my own copy as funnily enough I work in transport.

I'm a glass half full person, but not a glass 36% full. I'm also worried that others may live in a parallel universe. London has been congested for decades, certainly since I visited as a child and since I have lived in the capital. And same true of other major cities. Welcome to the real world.

[Rockets]

Malumbu - is that the report you claimed was released yesterday which in fact was published in November. Which part of transport do you work in...carrier pigeon? ;-)

Also your claim that London has been congested for decades is somewhat counter-intuitive given the narrative that the pro-closure lobby disseminates that the massive increases have happened over the last few years. Which one is it?

With every post you make your message becomes increasingly incoherent. The only ones who are living in a parallel universe are those who refuse to see beyond their own car-free nirvana.....

[Metallic]

Someone has vandalised the planters in Dulwich Village. No doubt anyone who has ever disapproved of the junction closure will now be under suspicion by the Friends of Dulwich Square.

[singalto]

Why are the restrictions on Townley in operation during the school holidays?

[Metallic]

singalto Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Why are the restrictions on Townley in operation

> during the school holidays?

Or anywhere else for that matter!

[KidKruger]

I?d guess either because (when enforcement cameras are in place) it?ll generate more fines, or specifying date ranges / conditions for restrictions is too much hassle to put on a sign. Or both.

Metallic Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Someone has vandalised the planters in Dulwich

> Village. No doubt anyone who has ever disapproved

> of the junction closure will now be under

> suspicion by the Friends of Dulwich Square.

[n dulwich northerner]

singalto Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Why are the restrictions on Townley in operation

> during the school holidays?

Maybe road signs have a maximum number of characters?

[roywj]

Cameras are already in place. Townley Road has a white one set further back from the junction.

Tickets been issued since 1 December

KidKruger Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I?d guess either because (when enforcement cameras

> are in place) it?ll generate more fines, or

> specifying date ranges / conditions for

> restrictions is too much hassle to put on a sign.

> Or both.

>

> Metallic Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Someone has vandalised the planters in Dulwich

> > Village. No doubt anyone who has ever

> disapproved

> > of the junction closure will now be under

> > suspicion by the Friends of Dulwich Square.

[legalalien]

The coroner?s decision in the Ella Kissi- Debrah case has been delivered. It finds that air pollution made a material contribution to her death. Kudos to her mother and all those involved in pushing for this inquest. Let?s hope it leads to more air pollution monitoring, advice etc. As noted on the other thread the Southwark Health and Well-being Board have air quality on their agenda for next week.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-55330945

[Nigello]

I am pleased this was released and the result. How come, though, that you, legalalien, immediately put it on the shoulders of the authorities rather than saying "let's hope it leads to people reviewing their own car use (alongside monitoring, etc.")- which does have a valid role, of course.

People have power but you disregard this, in this instance. Speaks volumes about the pervasive, general "it's not my fault, leave it to someone else" attitude lots of people prefer to adopt when it comes to pollution and congestion.