LTN: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3

[malumbu]

Difficulty is that most of you fail to see the real problem. It is the Xmas tree stall on the South Circ near to the Harvester, traffic slows down to turn in or stops to allow people to pull out and it causes tail backs all the way to Court Lane. You need to start a campaign to get it closed down. I bet that Souhthwark is behind this all. Yes I am being facetious but it goes to prove a point that traffic flows depend on numerous factors. I would have said that Everyday is like a Sunday but I know longer quote Morrissey for obvious reasons. Although meat is still murder.

[Slocky]

alice Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> cwjlawrence Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Here?s some good news to cheer you all up on a

> > cold Monday night!

> >

> > Coming back from my daughter's primary school

> last

> > Friday, I counted 54 unique bicycles between

> > leaving Dulwich Hamlets (not including she or

> I),

> > cycling along Calton Ave and down EDG to

> Melbourne

> > Grove. You?re not misreading that - it was 54

> > bikes in a 5 minute cycle ride. It was like

> being

> > in Beijing in the 70s!

> >

> > I've never seen anything like this in East

> Dulwich

> > and certainly not in the dark on a foggy day in

> > winter! 10 years ago, I wouldn't expect to see

> > anyone cycling and even last year there maybe

> be

> > only 1 or 2 people, and probably MAMILs at that.

>

> > Contrast this with this scene of this number of

> > cyclists (of which only 1 or 2 were MAMILS!)

> going

> > to and from school/work.

> >

> > In my son's class at school, there has been a

> real

> > shift in how his classmates get to school with

> > children now cycling from Clapham who used to

> get

> > driven over in rush-hour traffic.

> >

> > If this is what it?s like in winter, just

> imagine

> > what it?s going to be like come the spring - an

> > active travel paradise!

>

>

> When you live in the Golden Triangle of Dulwich -

> all manner of wonderful transformational sights

> can be seen.

>

> But for the rest of us. Nah,

On Matham Grove there is increased vehicle traffic cutting through to travel south on LL but also increased bicycle (and occasional scooter) traffic, often against the one way direction, many of whom are parents and kids travelling to the nursery on the corner. I do hope it is closed to through vehicle traffic asap not only to encourage more to travel through by bike but also before there is a collision of the two, sadly looking increasingly likely.

[Spartacus]

malumbu Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Difficulty is that most of you fail to see the

> real problem. It is the Xmas tree stall on the

> South Circ near to the Harvester, traffic slows

> down to turn in or stops to allow people to pull

> out and it causes tail backs all the way to Court

> Lane. You need to start a campaign to get it

> closed down. I bet that Souhthwark is behind this

> all. Yes I am being facetious but it goes to

> prove a point that traffic flows depend on

> numerous factors. I would have said that Everyday

> is like a Sunday but I know longer quote Morrissey

> for obvious reasons. Although meat is still

> murder.

Wrong kind of snow Christmas trees ?

[Rockets]

Nigello Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Rockets, I see that and I also see empty stretches

> of LL, so neither shows a typical situation. It

> shows a snapshot, that's all. Every day feels like

> a Friday because you maybe want it to because it

> reinforces your viewpoint? (You also have a car,

> so are, ipso facto, part of the problem even

> though you may not want to believe that.)

Nigello - you only want to see what you want to see (same applies for me). My pictures are based on what is happening and the nonsense some people are spouting about this being because of the Christmas tree sellers on the A205 is utter hogwash - anyone who bothers to look will have seen those queues have been there since the LTNs went in and well before any Christmas trees were being sold. You revel in images of proof there isn't a problem yet attack those posting images showing there is - you don't work for the council do you? ;-)

I am not even going to grace your accusation of me being part of the problem with a response - it is a childish, and frankly, ill-conceived attempt to bait which really goes to show the problem those who dare voice an opinion other than total support for the closures face. Any second now I am sure you'll pull the Daily Mail/Nigel Farage/Jeremy Clarkson* accusation.......it's frankly tiresome and goes to show how fanatical some of the pro-closure cultists have become - incapable of having any reasoned debate or acknowledge that there might be another side of the story without defaulting to attacks. It's doing your cause no favours.

*delete as applicable

[Rockets]

Slocky Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> alice Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > cwjlawrence Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > Here?s some good news to cheer you all up on

> a

> > > cold Monday night!

> > >

> > > Coming back from my daughter's primary school

> > last

> > > Friday, I counted 54 unique bicycles between

> > > leaving Dulwich Hamlets (not including she or

> > I),

> > > cycling along Calton Ave and down EDG to

> > Melbourne

> > > Grove. You?re not misreading that - it was 54

> > > bikes in a 5 minute cycle ride. It was like

> > being

> > > in Beijing in the 70s!

> > >

> > > I've never seen anything like this in East

> > Dulwich

> > > and certainly not in the dark on a foggy day

> in

> > > winter! 10 years ago, I wouldn't expect to

> see

> > > anyone cycling and even last year there maybe

> > be

> > > only 1 or 2 people, and probably MAMILs at

> that.

> >

> > > Contrast this with this scene of this number

> of

> > > cyclists (of which only 1 or 2 were MAMILS!)

> > going

> > > to and from school/work.

> > >

> > > In my son's class at school, there has been a

> > real

> > > shift in how his classmates get to school

> with

> > > children now cycling from Clapham who used to

> > get

> > > driven over in rush-hour traffic.

> > >

> > > If this is what it?s like in winter, just

> > imagine

> > > what it?s going to be like come the spring -

> an

> > > active travel paradise!

> >

> >

> > When you live in the Golden Triangle of Dulwich

> -

> > all manner of wonderful transformational sights

> > can be seen.

> >

> > But for the rest of us. Nah,

>

> On Matham Grove there is increased vehicle traffic

> cutting through to travel south on LL but also

> increased bicycle (and occasional scooter)

> traffic, often against the one way direction, many

> of whom are parents and kids travelling to the

> nursery on the corner. I do hope it is closed to

> through vehicle traffic asap not only to encourage

> more to travel through by bike but also before

> there is a collision of the two, sadly looking

> increasingly likely.

Matham Grove and the EDG junction with Lordship Lane need to be sorted and quickly. You are right, both are an accident waiting to happen - the EDG and LL junction is a nightmare to try and cross.

[redpost]

Rockets, but your pictures are inflammatory hogwash. There is no context or metrics presented with the photo, just an un-timestamped picture and an accompanying rant about people not being able to drive their brum brums quickly because everyone in tooley street is secretly wearing lycra under their business attire.

How long did it take to clear? when did it start? any accidents reported? Did you check the tfl traffic cams?

https://www.tfljamcams.net/index.php?v=openstreetmap

Rockets Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Nigello Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Rockets, I see that and I also see empty

> stretches

> > of LL, so neither shows a typical situation. It

> > shows a snapshot, that's all. Every day feels

> like

> > a Friday because you maybe want it to because

> it

> > reinforces your viewpoint? (You also have a

> car,

> > so are, ipso facto, part of the problem even

> > though you may not want to believe that.)

>

>

> Nigello - you only want to see what you want to

> see (same applies for me). My pictures are based

> on what is happening and the nonsense some people

> are spouting about this being because of the

> Christmas tree sellers on the A205 is utter

> hogwash - anyone who bothers to look will have

> seen those queues have been there since the LTNs

> went in and well before any Christmas trees were

> being sold. You revel in images of proof there

> isn't a problem yet attack those posting images

> showing there is - you don't work for the council

> do you? ;-)

>

> I am not even going to grace your accusation of me

> being part of the problem with a response - it is

> a childish, and frankly, ill-conceived attempt to

> bait which really goes to show the problem those

> who dare voice an opinion other than total support

> for the closures face. Any second now I am sure

> you'll pull the Daily Mail/Nigel Farage/Jeremy

> Clarkson* accusation.......it's frankly tiresome

> and goes to show how fanatical some of the

> pro-closure cultists have become - incapable of

> having any reasoned debate or acknowledge that

> there might be another side of the story without

> defaulting to attacks. It's doing your cause no

> favours.

>

> *delete as applicable

[Rockets]

....that rests the case for the prosecution m'lud....

Redpost many, many people have reported here that there are continuing problems at both ends of Lordship Lane caused by the increased traffic since the LTNs went in. That was the scene at 4.30pm today (it has been like that most days since the LTNs went in) - if you're really that interested look at the meta data in the picture and you will see it was taken at that time today. Meta data editors are readily available on internet.

This is not because of a Christmas tree vendor on the A205 it's because there is too much traffic trying to go down Lordship Lane to turn right at the Grove Tavern. Why? Because East/West routes across Dulwich Village are closed by the LTNs. It's really not that difficult to grasp and it was utterly predictable outcome of closing the routes.

What are you so afraid of? I think it is reasoned debate - you are trying to stifle any sort of opposition to the closures and any time anyone presents a view other than your own you attack them.

Brum brums......classy! ;-)

[legalalien]

Tbf I don't think Rockets said any such thing (and your description of the alleged rant sounds a little inflammatory itself?). Ordinary residents tend to take one pic when out and about - we're not part of organised / professional lobby groups with time and organisation to do appropriately timestamped roadside studies and social media campaigns. The difference may be how we got to where we are. I don't have a twitter account so am missing the social media wars but maybe I should get one and start filming on my runs / dog walks / occasional trips to the shops? I'd much rather the council put some impartial / accurate / appropriately positioned monitoring of traffic and air quality in, but if needs must?

redpost Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Rockets, but your pictures are inflammatory

> hogwash. There is no context or metrics presented

> with the photo, just an un-timestamped picture and

> an accompanying rant about people not being able

> to drive their brum brums quickly because everyone

> in tooley street is secretly wearing lycra under

> their business attire.

>

> How long did it take to clear? when did it start?

> any accidents reported? Did you check the tfl

> traffic cams?

>

> https://www.tfljamcams.net/index.php?v=openstreetm

> ap

>

>

>

>

>

> Rockets Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Nigello Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > Rockets, I see that and I also see empty

> > stretches

> > > of LL, so neither shows a typical situation.

> It

> > > shows a snapshot, that's all. Every day feels

> > like

> > > a Friday because you maybe want it to because

> > it

> > > reinforces your viewpoint? (You also have a

> > car,

> > > so are, ipso facto, part of the problem even

> > > though you may not want to believe that.)

> >

> >

> > Nigello - you only want to see what you want to

> > see (same applies for me). My pictures are

> based

> > on what is happening and the nonsense some

> people

> > are spouting about this being because of the

> > Christmas tree sellers on the A205 is utter

> > hogwash - anyone who bothers to look will have

> > seen those queues have been there since the

> LTNs

> > went in and well before any Christmas trees

> were

> > being sold. You revel in images of proof there

> > isn't a problem yet attack those posting images

> > showing there is - you don't work for the

> council

> > do you? ;-)

> >

> > I am not even going to grace your accusation of

> me

> > being part of the problem with a response - it

> is

> > a childish, and frankly, ill-conceived attempt

> to

> > bait which really goes to show the problem

> those

> > who dare voice an opinion other than total

> support

> > for the closures face. Any second now I am sure

> > you'll pull the Daily Mail/Nigel Farage/Jeremy

> > Clarkson* accusation.......it's frankly

> tiresome

> > and goes to show how fanatical some of the

> > pro-closure cultists have become - incapable of

> > having any reasoned debate or acknowledge that

> > there might be another side of the story

> without

> > defaulting to attacks. It's doing your cause no

> > favours.

> >

> > *delete as applicable

[Abe_froeman]

That traffic jam cams is a wonderful resource. Just look at all the red traffic dots surrounding the so-called Low Traffic Neighborhoods in East Dulwich and Dulwich Village. It shows perfectly what an absolute disaster these schemes have become.

[Raeburn]

Traffic was free-flowing through the LL/South Circular Grove junction at 18.00 today, both directions. V little backed up, certainly no problem with the xmas tree place. Issue with xmas place was at the weekend/first weekend after movement restrictions eased/retail re-opening.

Stood and watched a few light cycles, no problems with traffic or xmas trees.

?????

I noticed earlier (when Rockets posted the pic) that the traffic extended up Horniman Hill - I can see this from my window. Walked up to take a look about 18.15, and there?s temporary lights on Honor Oak Rd, 100m from junction. These are not synchronised with the junction and when ?out of sync? backed traffic up to the junction, impeding flow and jamming the junction both ways.

No idea if this could have been the reason for impeded traffic at peak flow, but something to consider.

[esme]

Rockets Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> ....that rests the case for the prosecution

> m'lud....

>

> Redpost many, many people have reported here that

> there are continuing problems at both ends of

> Lordship Lane caused by the increased traffic

> since the LTNs went in. That was the scene at

> 4.30pm today (it has been like that most days

> since the LTNs went in) - if you're really that

> interested look at the meta data in the picture

> and you will see it was taken at that time today.

> Meta data editors are readily available on

> internet.

>

> This is not because of a Christmas tree vendor on

> the A205 it's because there is too much traffic

> trying to go down Lordship Lane to turn right at

> the Grove Tavern. Why? Because East/West routes

> across Dulwich Village are closed by the LTNs.

> It's really not that difficult to grasp and it was

> utterly predictable outcome of closing the

> routes.

>

> What are you so afraid of? I think it is reasoned

> debate - you are trying to stifle any sort of

> opposition to the closures and any time anyone

> presents a view other than your own you attack

> them.

>

> Brum brums......classy! ;-)

Many sadly don't want debate when it raises the issues with the LTN schemes, which are I fear a disaster on Melbourne Grove and in the village, although I think the closure on Tintagel Crescent actually works well (it was a quiet street anyway but allows safe crossing near the Mind shop for school children, the elderly etc).

Many live in rose tinted world where they don't necessarily work long hours and rely on public transport to and from home in rush hour after school drop off (and vice versa for pick up in the evenings).

[Earl Aelfheah]

Apparently there has been a doubling in cycling on the Dulwich filtered streets

[ab29]

One Dulwich is urging people to register their objections to the closure of Calton Avenue and Court Lane ? the deadline is 17 December 2020.

[www.onedulwich.uk]

More information here: www.southwark.gov.uk.

[Rockets]

Rahrahrah, it's an encouraging headline but I have looked at the report and it does throw up some more questions.

The number of cyclists observed rose from 417 (in 2018) to 808 (In November this year) - this is the doubling - it's only 391 more cyclists. Given we were still in lockdown in November I am surprised the figure is this low. I would have expected to see a much more significant jump in cyclists as more people have time to cycle their children to school and are looking for new ways to exercise.

Also, the control is Red Post Hill - I don't understand why they chose that as the control - I can only presume because Red Post Hill is close to Charter but Calton Ave is wedged between 3 sizeable schools.

Finally, given the council stated that 7,000 cars were using the DV junction when the junction was open those 391 new cyclists are not at all encouraging. It suggests that modal shift has not been sufficient enough to have warranted the closure of the junction and the subsequent displacement issues it has created.

I am sure you will disagree but I think that report actually highlights a major problem here - that these interventions are not delivering suitable results and I think the question needs to be asked whether the overall impact is positive or negative (when you factor in increased congestion and pollution being caused by displacement).

[malumbu]

It would be great to hear why you are so dismissive of cycling. You will say you aren't but to the casual reader it comes across like that. Doubling of cycling is great, then a further doubling and again and again. Come and join us!

[Rockets]

I am a cyclist - used to cycle to and from Hammersmith everyday from East Dulwich and still cycle a lot - so I am not at all dismissive of cycling, I am just a realist. That "doubling" isn't even close to making the impact the LTNs were supposedly designed for and don't come close to negating the residual impact of the closures on other people. If that much disruption led to only 300 more cycle journeys per day then something is really wrong and even the most ardent pro-closure lobbyist must be able to acknowledge that - there is way too much collateral damage going on for those numbers not to be scrutinised.

P.S. Always be suspicious of reports that claim "doubling" and don't mention the granular detail and numbers until much further down the piece....they know the actual numbers are not that compelling.

[legalalien]

I?m also not entirely convinced by the choice of control site - as the survey says, 3/4 of the children cycling at the street space site were primary school age. I have no doubt that the number of primary aged children travelling from the LTN areas (both of them) to Alleyns / JAGS and from Area A to the Hamlet and Village School is significantly greater than the number of primary aged children travelling southbound down Red Post Hill to those schools by some margin. Based on the teenagers I know, they would much rather walk or get the bus than cycle - for whatever teenager reasons that they have... (I know this is anecdotal).

I do agree that there has been an uptick in primary school children from the LTN cycling to school - as a result of a combination of closed streets at key school times, schools

putting better cycle rack facilities in place, and a degree of ?peer pressure? on parents to do the right thing, and that?s good. But that benefit for that relatively small number of people has to be balanced against the negative impacts that are happening to others, and I?m not convinced the balance is currently right - as I?ve said repeatedly I have concerns about social inequality / who is benefiting vs who is adversely affected in relation to this particular LTN. As a parent living locally who did the primary school run on foot and by bicycle for years before these closures went in (but still relatively recently) I think that less drastic timed closures would be sufficient. I?m also a bit concerned that this may be a bit of a ?fad? and the novelty may wear off (based on various other parents I have seen that happen to over the years once the winter weather kicks in and children get slightly older with more stuff to carry, later finish times (in the dark) etc) - let?s hope not.

[Nigello]

Don't just bang on about cycling - it can sound like nobody thinks walking is a good idea. There is definitely a kind of hierarchy (that changes according to one's attitudes) and walking is right down at the bottom, seen as the default and therefore not worth investing in or even talking about. I have no idea which schools in the area seek to encourage walking at least as much as cycling but I wish they would do it more!

I remember being able to buy reflectors at primary school every winter term so that you could be seen and be safe if you hung them on your bag or from your coat, etc. Don't see them at all. (I do not think for a minute that a reflector is going to be anywhere near as exciting to an eight year old as it was in the mid seventies but surely some tactics are better than none?)

[Rockets]

Also, was there anything to prevent those 300 counted cycle journeys from being outbound and return journeys? So, if someone cycled down Calton Avenue, dropped their child at the school and then cycled back is that counted as 1, 2 or 3 journeys?

[legalalien]

I agree with you Nigello. The big risk of walking locally is not so much a traffic risk as a mugging risk, for younger secondary age children in particular and during the winter months with dark evenings - I know this puts a lot of parents off allowing their children to walk to school. Not exactly sure of the solution - walking bus, monitored safe points, better CCTV, but would be very interested in getting behind some of these things. With quieter areas in the closed off areas I think looking at these things is important...

[redpost]

Read the report, it would be counted as 3 journeys because it is 3 journeys.

Also note, the report is only about cycling and takes no account of people walking rather than driving.

Rockets Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Also, was there anything to prevent those 300

> counted cycle journeys from being outbound and

> return journeys? So, if someone cycled down Calton

> Avenue, dropped their child at the school and then

> cycled back is that counted as 1, 2 or 3 journeys?

[exdulwicher]

Also, was there anything to prevent those 300 counted cycle journeys from being outbound and return journeys? So, if someone cycled down Calton Avenue, dropped their child at the school and then cycled back is that counted as 1, 2 or 3 journeys?

Same as if a parent drives from home to school to drop a child off and then drives home, that's 2 journeys.

To the parent, it probably counts a one trip as in "I'm just taking [child] to school darling, back soon!"

For traffic counting, it's two distinct journeys.

[first mate]

I think the crime risk or perception of risk applies both to those cycling and walking, especially when its dark. Also not sure what the solution is.

[roywj]

Surprising how many drivers are still going through the Village and Townley road during the closure times. I wonder how much each fine costs and how many have been fined already.

[Dulwichgirl82]

Traffic backed up beyond the picture house, 12.30 on Friday.