LTN: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3

[Raeburn]

But Rockets photo is taken facing South West, away from Court Lane. The jam extended all the way to Forest Hill, 1km away from the LTN - ? It?s also the first Friday since restrictions have been eased. There?s been waterworks at the junction of South Circ and LL these last few weeks too.

My point is that presenting this photo as evidence is just incorrect. Not sure if this is knowingly or naively, but it serves to undermine any reasonable discussion.

[DulwichCentral]

ali2007 Wrote:

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> No Raeburn - exactly as Rocket said.

2 years ago I took my son for guitar lessons in Forest Hill and sometimes had to cancel half way because traffic was so bad from Lordship Lane to Forest Hill - we'd miss our slot. A friend in forest hill used to drive her child to school in Dulwich - took her at least an hour both ways.

To blame ALL the traffic going south on Lordship Lane on Dulwich traffic measures is exaggerating imho.

[Metallic]

Like the ridiculous events held in the summer on the road space at the base of Calton Avenue, which were stopped because council needed to permit this, we now have a large Christmas tree in the carriageway surrounded by official barriers, so does that mean that side of the carriageway is not a road (tell the cyclists and kids on scooters) and if it isn't, where are the permissions posted please? It is probably a Southwark Council tree or up with their blessing, what does everyone think? Of course rumour has spread that benches and a bike rack of some kind are going to also appear in this space.

[DulwichCentral]

Metallic Wrote:

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> Like the ridiculous events held in the summer on

> the road space at the base of Calton Avenue, which

> were stopped because council needed to permit

> this, we now have a large Christmas tree in the

> carriageway surrounded by official barriers, so

> does that mean that side of the carriageway is not

> a road (tell the cyclists and kids on scooters)

> and if it isn't, where are the permissions posted

> please? It is probably a Southwark Council tree

> or up with their blessing, what does everyone

> think? Of course rumour has spread that benches

> and a bike rack of some kind are going to also

> appear in this space.

I think it's lovely :) and it's in the middle bit on the island so not blocking cyclists or scooting. Benches would be nice too! No offence but it does seem a bit 'grinchy' to disapprove of a Christmas tree - whatever you think of the road changes.

[Penguin68]

As above the traffic on LL is terrible, this is likely related to those being unable to go to the village/HH and beyond via court lane and turney road, so all having head along LL to S circular.

Which also explains why Underhill Road now has standing traffic through the evening rush hour, as people try to get to the A205. Until these closures standing traffic was only caused by skip deliveries, and was quite rare - it's now a daily occurrence Monday to Friday. So my air quality has plummeted - but there's no Southwark maven measuring around me!

[Metallic]

I may be grinchy but as far as I can see this is the equivalent of creeping suburbia. Once there, these things will never go, and I am a supporter - obviously, of the groups who would like the junction open again with a camera to control rush hour traffic.

[Nigello]

I see fewer cars parked near me (8am on Saturday, so not a time when folk are usually out in their cars_ and I would think that a fair few people have gone away for the weekend, for the first time in ages. This has to have had an impact on queues, especially when you see it was at post-work, post-school time.

[Dulwichgirl82]

Actually I was just on east dulwich grove about 1 hours ago and traffic from queueing back to Melbourne grove, no skips etc blocking. I was going to take a photo but I managed to drop my phone cleverly.

Nigello Wrote:

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> I see fewer cars parked near me (8am on Saturday,

> so not a time when folk are usually out in their

> cars_ and I would think that a fair few people

> have gone away for the weekend, for the first time

> in ages. This has to have had an impact on queues,

> especially when you see it was at post-work,

> post-school time.

[Rockets]

Raeburn Wrote:

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> But Rockets photo is taken facing South West, away

> from Court Lane. The jam extended all the way to

> Forest Hill, 1km away from the LTN - ? It?s also

> the first Friday since restrictions have been

> eased. There?s been waterworks at the junction of

> South Circ and LL these last few weeks too.

>

> My point is that presenting this photo as evidence

> is just incorrect. Not sure if this is knowingly

> or naively, but it serves to undermine any

> reasonable discussion.

Raeburn, it is like that every day - I have posted pictures from other days previously. It is being caused by traffic having to use LL to get to the A205 and the tailback past the shops as they try to filter right at the Grove. This is now why people are using Underhill as the corner cutter to get onto the A205 past the Grove.In fact, I suspect it has been particularly bad these last few days because Underhill is closed and the cut through is not available

This is all caused by the LTNs forcing traffic along Lordship Lane as they can now longer go west on the closed routes.

[malumbu]

Or perhaps it is simply caused by too many cars, are all the journeys necessary?

[Dulwichgirl82]

And when I came back. All the way back to health centre about 12pm. Nothing blocking the junction I could see.

[Raeburn]

So applying your logic ...in your photo the opposite lane is clear = LTN has evaporated traffic? (it hasn?t).

I?m simply pointing out that you can?t present a photo as evidence, without context or even an attempt to understand what?s going on.

Your last two points were similarly hollow. The lack of critical thinking is either on purpose ...or not.

[Dulwichgirl82]

Actually using logic the other lane is just after the traffic lights so likely to only be busy in bursts after they open,If you go further down LL which I did yesterday traffic was awful from around Melbourne grove south to goose green roundabout in that direction. Coming that way down from FH if heading to HH DV etc you would use S circular closures or not

I?d imagine.

Raeburn Wrote:

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> So applying your logic ...in your photo the

> opposite lane is clear = LTN has evaporated

> traffic? (it hasn?t).

>

> I?m simply pointing out that you can?t present a

> photo as evidence, without context or even an

> attempt to understand what?s going on.

>

> Your last two points were similarly hollow. The

> lack of critical thinking is either on purpose

> ...or not.

[northernmonkey]

So to further your desire of leaving the roads with the same issues you claim now during rush hours, you?re complaining about a Christmas tree? Yes, that is pretty ?Grinchy?

Metallic Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I may be grinchy but as far as I can see this is

> the equivalent of creeping suburbia. Once there,

> these things will never go, and I am a supporter -

> obviously, of the groups who would like the

> junction open again with a camera to control rush

> hour traffic.

[DulwichCentral]

Traffic seems bad everywhere today so it can't be a result of latest restrictions because they don't run at weekends.

It's often bad at weekends anyway with all the school sports events.

Probably today Christmas shopping? Understandably people still not using public transport.

But if people are shopping locally (and hopefully supporting small business) surely most people don't need to drive? Unless they are buying something huge.

[Dulwichgirl82]

But the original restrictions are present all the time which I think are the ones we are taking about. So it can be a result of that.

DulwichCentral Wrote:

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> Traffic seems bad everywhere today so it can't be

> a result of latest restrictions because they don't

> run at weekends.

> It's often bad at weekends anyway with all the

> school sports events.

>

> Probably today Christmas shopping? Understandably

> people still not using public transport.

>

> But if people are shopping locally (and hopefully

> supporting small business) surely most people

> don't need to drive? Unless they are buying

> something huge.

[holymoly]

It is bad everywhere because the main closures in Phase 1 have made it so. Phase 2 build on these and have exacerbated them.

But no escaping the fact that the Phase 1 closures in Dulwich Village, Melbourne Grove etc are a fundamental problem and need resolving.

DulwichCentral Wrote:

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> Traffic seems bad everywhere today so it can't be

> a result of latest restrictions because they don't

> run at weekends.

> It's often bad at weekends anyway with all the

> school sports events.

>

> Probably today Christmas shopping? Understandably

> people still not using public transport.

>

> But if people are shopping locally (and hopefully

> supporting small business) surely most people

> don't need to drive? Unless they are buying

> something huge.

[DulwichCentral]

I think people are talking about all the changes in general aren't they? Someone even complained about a Christmas tree :) Traffic is usually bad at weekends. Which shows why restrictions at peak times only don't make car-free areas for people to cycle (and change their habit of always using the car) the minute it's not peak hours it just fills up with cars again. At least there are now some safe routes which are being used a lot by people walking and cycling which is great!

[Dulwichgirl82]

But only for the few not the many.

As an aside you mentioned putting bench?s in the DV closed area, these are experimental measures no so this would be a waste of council money as they may well have to be removed when the road reopens?

DulwichCentral Wrote:

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> I think people are talking about all the changes

> in general aren't they? Someone even complained

> about a Christmas tree :) Traffic is usually bad

> at weekends. Which shows why restrictions at peak

> times only don't make car-free areas for people to

> cycle (and change their habit of always using the

> car) the minute it's not peak hours it just fills

> up with cars again. At least there are now some

> safe routes which are being used a lot by people

> walking and cycling which is great!

[ab29]

Totally agree with you Penguin - for years Underhill Road has been my to-and-from work walking route - it is now as bad in the afternoon as Lordship Lane.

Penguin68 Wrote:

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> As above the traffic on LL is terrible, this is

> likely related to those being unable to go to the

> village/HH and beyond via court lane and turney

> road, so all having head along LL to S circular.

>

> Which also explains why Underhill Road now has

> standing traffic through the evening rush hour, as

> people try to get to the A205. Until these

> closures standing traffic was only caused by skip

> deliveries, and was quite rare - it's now a daily

> occurrence Monday to Friday. So my air quality has

> plummeted - but there's no Southwark maven

> measuring around me!

[heartblock]

I do love the way people tell me I am incorrect in saying the traffic on EDG is worse than before the LTNs went in, despite the fact I have lived in the same house and same road for 30 years.

I?m told it is ?roadworks, when it?s lockdown I?m told it?s ?lockdown? when it?s Friday I?m told it?s because it?s a ?Friday?, when it?s Saturday, I?m told it?s because it?s a ?Saturday?, when it?s the school run I?m told it?s the ?school run?, or I?m told it will ?bed in? or that there are just ?too many cars on the road? so I will just have to put up with car users from Calton Ave, Melbourne etc driving on my road... but that?s ok because who cares about EDG residents, or the schools, or the nurseries. I?m sure residents on LL feel like they are also being constantly gaslighted.

One friend on Twitter with children was told by one person, she should move from EDG and if she didn?t she was a selfish mother. LTNs work in a overall plan of traffic reduction, with public transport and cycling/walking infrastructure...

LTNs in isolation create more traffic on roads outside the LTNs if this infrastructure is not in place - a bonus for a few residents with increased pollution and health inequality for others.

[Rockets]

Heartblock - the pro-closure lobby have an excuse for everything, but what they cannot escape is the fact that traffic has been displaced onto other roads and is causing big issues for the roads. No matter how many times they, or the council, tell us that they haven't noticed any increases in traffic we all know the truth.

Raeburn - in the interest of balance I went to the northern end of Lordship Lane today and took these pictures. THe Lane is now congested all day Saturday and Sunday and is the worst I have seen it for the 15 years I have lived here.

I have more photos too that I will upload on Monday as I am struggling to get them under the 600kb file size.

[Dulwichgirl82]

Lordship

Lane horribly busy and goose green roundabout backing up east dulwich road to the children?s playground. I wonder if this will make the area less attractive to come to as It?s fairly unpleasant waking along the shops or sitting outside the pubs etc now.

[slarti b]

@Rockets

"the pro-closure lobby have an excuse for everything, but what they cannot escape is the fact that traffic has been displaced onto other roads and is causing big issues for the roads."

I do not see why they keep denying it, displacement of traffic onto other roads was a cleary stated, explicit objective of the OHS scheme as you can see from their phase 3 consulatation document;

Guiding Principle No 2 "Encourage through traffic to use main roads" But at the meetings I went to, any questions about displacement were dismissed with comments that traffic evaporation would take care of that and proper traffic modelling would only take place after the consultation. This was deliberately misleading and, of course, wrong.

[Raeburn]

Me too. Intrigued I followed the gridlock eastbound along to junction with South circular

...the gridlock is caused by the xmas tree sales opposite the Grove. Vehicles on both sides (but largely from North) waiting to turn into the small, full, car-park. Staff are trying to manage the situation(?!) but it?s preventing traffic flow. Every cycle of the lights allows v few cars onto South Circular.

As I left an articulated lorry was trying to navigate the column of 5(?) cars waiting to get into the xmas tree sales.

That?s what?s causing the tailback today.