LTN: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3

[EDBoy]

Some of this thread is really quite interesting and there are some decent suggestions and caveats to Healthy Streets - Dulwich Phase 3. Slarti, I don't live in the Northern part of Area B, but I do live nearby and fully understand what the mornings and evenings are like in term time. Unlike you, I don't cycle through Dulwich Village most mornings but when I used to cycle to work, I would usually try to avoid main roads and rat-runs wherever possible. However, at 5:00am there really wasn't much traffic about. With regard to lecturing, I'm not sure about the foundation schools, but there seems does plenty of it on this forum. JEG1, just to confirm, I've only lived here 20 years, I was quoting Slarti. I understand the need for change, but as other posters have said, closing local roads to traffic is not the answer and will move the problem elsewhere. One of the main reasons that there is a CPZ in Herne Hill/North Dulwich is because of the introduction of the Central London Congestion Charging Zone in 2003. Also, having read the Champion Hill Monitoring Study I was slightly underwhelmed by the summary observations of improvements in traffic volumes, pollution levels and cycle movements, but what stood out was the quote regarding noticeable traffic increases on Camberwell Grove and East Dulwich Grove not having any link to the trial scheme. Therefore, getting back on thread, hopefully a few of you will be able to attend, if you haven't already, either the Herne Hill Baptist Church this Sat, 9:00am to 12pm, or Wed 4th March, 6:30pm to 9pm at JAGS to convey most of the ideas and concerns on this thread.

[wulfhound]

When I look at the plan I wonder how anyone coming from Brixton area is supposed to get across to the upper part of Lordship Lane - they may normally use Townley or Court Lane. Would they then be expected to drive along EDG, turn left onto Lordship Lane, then around the Goose Green roundabout and back along Lordship Lane?

Over Tulse Hill and along the South Circular seems pretty direct? Slow across the Common at rush hour, granted, but I'm not sure it'd be that much slower than any other way.

[Rockets]

Which by my reckoning would add at least an additional 1.5 miles to a 3 mile journey...so a 50% increase in pollution by an increased journey length. Then factor in the number of additional cars also making that journey because of the closure of DV to through-traffic (remember the council reckons there are 7000 cars going through there a day) and the A205 and other roads become more choked with traffic and so the cars spend more time in high pollution idling mode stuck in traffic....

Do you see the issue here....the problem here is Nimbyism....all the council is going to do is move the problem from one area to another and create more problems than there were originally...?

And some may say that people will stop using their cars...well maybe 10% might but even then there's still a lot of through traffic to contend with elsewhere (6,000+ a day) and by looking at the council's own numbers a tiny number of cycles use that junction despite the alterations made to it which may suggest that it isn't a route cyclists want or need to take.

Just speak to anyone in Lambeth who lived through the Loughborough Junction debacle for a real-life case-study of what will happen. The impact was so catastrophic (in terms of congestion and pollution) to the surrounding areas that Lambeth had to reverse their plans.

[exdulwicher]

Rockets Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Which by my reckoning would add at least an

> additional 1.5 miles to a 3 mile journey...so a

> 50% increase in pollution by an increased journey

> length. Then factor in the number of additional

> cars also making that journey because of the

> closure of DV to through-traffic (remember the

> council reckons there are 7000 cars going through

> there a day) and the A205 and other roads become

> more choked with traffic and so the cars spend

> more time in high pollution idling mode stuck in

> traffic....

>

Brixton Station to Grove Tavern (upper end of Lordship Lane, as suggested). You can do this yourself on Google Mpas, picking and choosing start/finish points to test it. Croxted Road, left onto South Circular and left onto LL. 3 miles, currently showing at 16 mins by car.

The alternative route suggested is Half Moon Lane, DV, Court Lane: that's 2.8 miles and 17 mins (as at time of testing which is 3.30pm Wednesday so near school finishing time). Maybe that'd change by a few minutes either side if you tried it on a weekend.

Basically there's nothing in it - it's already quicker to go via the South Circular.

You can test this out on all sorts of start/finish points and modes of transport - Google Maps allows you to look at cycling, walking, car or public transport.

You'd hope that the council have learned some lessons from the Loughborough Junction issues (trying to do things single junction by single junction being the main one) so the area-wide plan seems pretty reasonable. The fact that all their consultation and a lot of the modelling work / figures / data is on their website suggests that there's a robust assurance framework in place for it.

[Rockets]

If such journeys are quicker by the south circular then why do 7,000 cars use DV every day - they're not all private school journeys as many on here would like to believe? (And my analysis was based on the suggestion that going via Tulse Hill was an option).

Loughborough Junction was not junction by junction - it was an area-wide closure of roads and access very similar to what Southwark is proposing for DV - Lambeth went through the same process, presented the same regurgitated facts about pollution and healthy streets, went through a consultation period that ignored the input of pretty much everyone, implemented it on a set date and sat back as utter chaos followed. After it was implemented they ignored the pleas of local residents both inside and outside the car-free area who said it wasn't working, they even ignored the pleas of the ambulance service who said the gridlock it was causing in the surrounding streets was putting lives at risk. Lambeth finally relented when Kate Hoey had to intervene (it is telling that they only listened to one of their political comrades!).

Any rational person could look at these proposals and see that the impact is going to be huge and that the problem isn't being dealt with, it's just being moved somewhere else. Hurrah for those in the area, bad luck for anyone outside it.

BTW does anyone know what work is being done at the DV/Court Lane junction at the moment that is causing the big tailbacks into and out of the village?

[EDBoy]

And this is the problem with the whole, 'Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3 - Have you say on our draft proposals'.

Ruskin Walk, a road that runs between Half Moon Lane and Herne Hill is set to become one-way, uphill only, with the addition of speed humps, from next week. No consultation and with very limited resident participation, unless you were a resident of Ruskin Walk. I think the council are learning just fine, and will continue to divide areas around here, road by road, junction by junction, CPZ by CPZ...

I have attached an email comment from Margy Newens below:

The proposals for Ruskin Walk come out of a report that was compiled about 2 years ago (before we were councillors) including a certain amount of data on traffic flow, and the responses to it. The idea now is to run a trial. A different route would have been to hold a full consultation, but for a small project like this, it seemed just as worthwhile to go ahead with a trial.

It is possible that it will increase the volume of traffic coming down Hollingbourne Road into Warmington Road and Howletts. This will be carefully monitored with the possibility of banning a turn into Hollingbourne Road from Herne Hill if it becomes a problem. The Highways officers felt that it was not necessary to include the no-turn in the trial.

Lambeth and Southwark are certainly talking to each other about their respective plans (Lambeth is looking at a very much wider area across most of Brixton and nearly as far as Herne Hill). Lewisham is also planning a large liveable neighbourhood and there are other projects across London. Birmingham is looking at closing the city centre to private motor vehicles altogether and, indeed, this replicates similar measures in a number of European cities. In all cases the over-riding ambition is to reduce reliance on private motor vehicles, encouraging and enabling people of all ages and abilities to safely choose more sustainable ways of getting about, and creating pleasanter neighbourhoods and public spaces that are not permanently choked with traffic. Accepting that some of our citizens have restriction on their mobility, reduced traffic volumes will make it easier for those who need to rely on their cars too.

Whilst the Ruskin Walk project has been motivated primarily by residents? desire to address practical safety concerns, the wider picture is very much about creating a healthier environment - tackling air pollution which is now increasingly being recognised as the public health crisis that it is, addressing the obesity epidemic and multiple other health impacts of low physical activity, and dealing with the climate emergency. It is true that no scheme is likely to be perfect but the least perfect path is to do nothing.

I would be very happy to discuss the details of the Dulwich Healthy Streets proposals if that would be helpful. Either way, we are encouraging residents to attend the engagement meetings where they can here about the proposals and ask questions.

Feedback welcome.

Warm regards

[slarti b]

Rockets Wrote:

> BTW does anyone know what work is being done at

> the DV/Court Lane junction at the moment that is

> causing the big tailbacks into and out of the

> village?

I had a look last night. It is SGN, ie gas network people. They had bore some large holes ( 50 cm daimter?) in teh road. Looking for leaks perhaps?

[Earl Aelfheah]

The bottom line is that we have to start providing people with better alternatives to the car. Even if it's a bit painful in the short term. It's simply not sustainable to have so much public space given over to motor vehicles. We need to encourage more walking, cycling and invest in public transport (I do worry that this last bit is not getting enough attention).

[rupert james]

I just spent 35 minutes waiting for a non existent P13 in the rain and sleet and with 8 other people mostly OAP's

Gave up and came home.

I have not been able to do what I had to do by bus. Wont happen again I will use my car.

[Metallic]

I think the councillors for Dulwich Village Ward might just (!) have mentioned this Ruskin Walk plan when they were meeting people who actually live in the Ward and who are facing turmoil if the OHS is implemented without a trial - not a word about it, even to Holmdene residents who are mostly impacted.

[Melihoople]

P13 Is a route of the devil... There needs to be much better public transport. It's no good ignoring this.

rupert james Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I just spent 35 minutes waiting for a non existent

> P13 in the rain and sleet and with 8 other people

> mostly OAP's

>

> Gave up and came home.

>

> I have not been able to do what I had to do by

> bus. Wont happen again I will use my car.

[exdulwicher]

rupert james Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I just spent 35 minutes waiting for a non existent

> P13 in the rain and sleet and with 8 other people

> mostly OAP's

>

> Gave up and came home.

>

> I have not been able to do what I had to do by

> bus. Wont happen again I will use my car.

TfL's website and app both have live bus info.

There's a good app called Bus Times London which is all London buses, all stop info, departures, live tracking and even little maps and arrows to show you which side of the road to go to. It's by a company called MapWay who do global transport apps for bus, metro, subway etc.

My Mum uses it all the time - as a lone elderly woman she doesn't want to be waiting round ages. She knows exactly how long it takes her to walk to the 4 bus stops within easy distance of her house, so she just looks at the app, works out how long she's got and sets off. If the bus is late/cancelled for whatever reason, it'll show up and she's not wasting time at a stop in the cold and rain. Don't think she's ever waited more than about 2 minutes since she started using that app!

[alice]

Why is TfL removing the digital timetable at bus stops? it was easy to use, removed the need of getting out your phone and fiddling with glasses etc and was accessible to all.

[exdulwicher]

alice Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Why is TfL removing the digital timetable at bus

> stops? it was easy to use, removed the need of

> getting out your phone and fiddling with glasses

> etc and was accessible to all.

@alice : it's just refurbishment of the stops. There's a rolling programme of improvements, one of which is the introduction of better/more modern displays capable of showing more info.

They're also sadly rather prone to vandalism so there's ongoing work to put shatterproof screens around them along with better security (CCTV, help points etc) at bus stops.

They won't be gone permanently, TfL are NOT getting rid of them. Hope that helps.

[rupert james]

Exdulwicher, Many people have asked on the forum are you a resident of East Dulwich and its surrounds but you have never answered.

You seem to have an agenda regarding all things motorised and are never short of the answer to people's postings.

If you do not reside in the area why do you find it necessary to keep replying and commenting on what is a local residents problem. If it does not affect you why do you keep commenting?

Its appears to me that you could be a plant.

Many people like me do not need a phone and the cost to put a man on the moon.

There are many people like me who do not need an APP to live perhaps the young should appreciate that.

Please let us know where you really live and why you find it necessary if you are not a local to keep posting?

If you do not live here how do you know what the daily problems are?

Not being rude just interested.

[Melihoople]

It's an interesting response that highlights a lack of understanding about the route. Which isn't helpful at improving local public travel.

exdulwicher Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> rupert james Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I just spent 35 minutes waiting for a non

> existent

> > P13 in the rain and sleet and with 8 other

> people

> > mostly OAP's

> >

> > Gave up and came home.

> >

> > I have not been able to do what I had to do by

> > bus. Wont happen again I will use my car.

>

> TfL's website and app both have live bus info.

> There's a good app called Bus Times London which

> is all London buses, all stop info, departures,

> live tracking and even little maps and arrows to

> show you which side of the road to go to. It's by

> a company called MapWay who do global transport

> apps for bus, metro, subway etc.

>

> My Mum uses it all the time - as a lone elderly

> woman she doesn't want to be waiting round ages.

> She knows exactly how long it takes her to walk to

> the 4 bus stops within easy distance of her house,

> so she just looks at the app, works out how long

> she's got and sets off. If the bus is

> late/cancelled for whatever reason, it'll show up

> and she's not wasting time at a stop in the cold

> and rain. Don't think she's ever waited more than

> about 2 minutes since she started using that app!

[alice]

My nearest excellent bus shelter has been replaced by a shiny new one without a digital timetable.

First create a problem then expect praise when it?s ?solved? - a bit like Healthy Streets

[exdulwicher]

rupert james Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Exdulwicher, Many people have asked on the forum

> are you a resident of East Dulwich and its

> surrounds but you have never answered.

>

> You seem to have an agenda regarding all things

> motorised and are never short of the answer to

> people's postings.

>

> If you do not reside in the area why do you find

> it necessary to keep replying and commenting on

> what is a local residents problem. If it does not

> affect you why do you keep commenting?

>

> Its appears to me that you could be a plant.

>

> Many people like me do not need a phone and the

> cost to put a man on the moon.

>

> There are many people like me who do not need an

> APP to live perhaps the young should appreciate

> that.

>

> Please let us know where you really live and why

> you find it necessary if you are not a local to

> keep posting?

>

> If you do not live here how do you know what the

> daily problems are?

>

> Not being rude just interested.

Rupert, good morning.

If you click on my name, you can view all my posts - you'll see I've been on this forum since 2015 although most of 2017/18 I wasn't very active at all on here.

Literally the only thing you have on me not living in Dulwich is the forum name. I'd have thought most of my posts on local matters actually show I have a very good knowledge and first-hand experience of the area? When I registered on here in 2015, I had moved away - EDF was a way of keeping in touch with what was going on in the area I grew up in, went to school in (Alleyn's if you're interested which I'm sure makes me a pariah in some circles!), lived in for a while after university, moved away from (but visited regularly), moved back to... For fairly obvious reasons I'm not going to give an address but it's Area B on the Healthy Streets plan.

I've lived here, travelled in/around/through the area by bicycle, car (the horror, I do own a car, it's not even ULEZ-compliant!), train and bus.

I post a fair bit on transport issues because it is literally my job (although not for Southwark). It's a topic that greatly interests me and I've seen / experienced plenty of the issues that Southwark / East Dulwich are proposing now done elsewhere (to varying degrees of success!) in the country and indeed in Europe.

I've never set out to offend anyone, I try and stick to transport facts and figures. Certainly not a plant either - I've been critical of Southwark Council at various times in the past on here.

Hope that's all OK and explains it?

[kiera]

exdulwicher - thank you for your most useful contribution to the forum. I find your posts very informative, so, regardless of where you live, I hope that you will continue to take the trouble to share your knowledge on here.

[kr988]

Exdulwicher I think I would have a bit more respect for your preaching if you weren?t a car owner yourself , although at least you are honest .

Rupert it took my son almost an hour to get home from West Dulwich on the P4 and 37 due to the Village Roadworks which I fear is modelling for what will happen with if the proposals go through . I too will be forced to drive him if delays on public transport get worse due to the changes .

[slarti b]

rahrahrah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The bottom line is that we have to start providing people with better alternatives to the car.... We need to

> encourage more walking, cycling and invest in public transport (I do worry that this last bit is

> not getting enough attention).

Rrr Overall I agree with you but I think far too much attention is given to the "walking and cycling" agenda rather than improving public transport. In reality many people will not cycle and older people will or cannot walk longer distances. What is a brisk 10 minute walk for a healthy 30\40\50 year old can be a real struggle for someone older or with mobility problems.

The current "Healthy Streets" plan contains very little information about improving public transport; indeed it ignores the possible effect on buses of traffic diverted down Lordship Lane and EDG. The slides are very misleading, I assuem deliberatley so, mentioning only the P4, what about the 37, 185, 176, 40, 42??

And please dont reply that buses are a matter for TFL, if the the plan is to take a holistic view of teh issue, public transport must be included and SOuthwark must work wit TFL to deliver this.

[bels123]

TfL are funding so working very closely together.

[slarti b]

Bels123,

Just because TFL are funding it doesn't mean they are working closely ( yet?). Do you know otherwise?

Also, do you know if there a specific objective for the funding from TFL for this initiative?

rahrahrah

Following up on the public transport issue I have been looking at the TFL web site. They use a measure called Public Transport Access Level or PTAL,to assess areas access to public transport rating them on a scale of 1(worst) to 6(best). Most of the streets in central Dulwich, the areas affected by this proposal, are rated 2, which confirms my view about the poor access to public transport.

[kiera]

I've always understood that, historically, the residents of Dulwich Village resisted the introduction of public transport into the Village & that that is why they only have one little single decker bus.

[Bicknell]

kiera Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I've always understood that, historically, the

> residents of Dulwich Village resisted the

> introduction of public transport into the Village

> & that that is why they only have one little

> single decker bus.

The story I heard was that it was the Dulwich Estate that didn't want buses years ago. I dont think anyone knows. Not sure it matters either. The truth is we need better public transport to get people out of their cars.