LTN: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3

[malumbu]

An article in Transport Times about road pricing. It's entitled taking the politics out of road pricing. Well worth a read. https://www.transporttimes.co.uk/news.php/Taking-the-politics-out-of-road-pricing-577/?utm_source=Transport+Times&utm_campaign=2944c9a532-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_10_30_11_03_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_c0cafa3f39-2944c9a532-250793593

Extracting a couple of interesting sections:

The policy on road pricing has been one of the best fiscal changes that any government could have made over the last generation. It has always been the most effective way to tackle traffic congestion and reduce pollution but now there is a fiscal imperative as the government faces a ?40 billion hole in its public finances with the advent of electric vehicles and rapidly diminishing receipts from fuel duty.

There are many who think that the shift to electric vehicles on its own will be sufficient. They are wrong. There is nothing green about a traffic jam and if government wants to put tackling climate change at the top of their priority list they should bear in mind that the freeze in fuel duty since 2011 has caused an additional 5 million tonnes of carbon emissions, by encouraging more trips by car and fewer trips by public transport.

[legalalien]

Thanks, will read. Generally in favour of ?polluter pays?, which this is a subset of.

obvs businesses that experience increased costs as a result will pass these on to consumers, but that means consumers get a better picture of the real cost of things they are purchasing...

[Rockets]

alex_b Wrote:

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> Rockets, it sounds like you?re accusing a number

> of academics and their professional society of

> research misconduct. Do you have any evidence to

> demonstrate this or to counter the measurements

> and assumptions they?ve set out in their report?

Not research misconduct - your words not mine. I just understand how the research game works when it comes to outbound communications and how communications departments within groups like CILT use paid research. The first bow in any PR campaign's armoury is research...it's an extension of the well-known phrase: Lies, damned lies, and statistics......

Feel free to PM me if you want any more details on how it works.

[redpost]

So, by the same logic rockets, you would categorise a paper demonstrating the efficacy of a proprietary drug or vaccine as a similar shill piece paid for by the drugs company holding the patent?

This logistics paper was published by a chartered institute and is peer reviewed. It has exactly the same status as the scenario above.

[legalalien]

It?s a massive issue in the pharma industry, see eg https://academic.oup.com/fampra/article/18/6/565/516238

Drugs trials are heavily regulated which mitigates against this. Am sure I?ve read before that the main cause of bias is whether or not publication happens: positive results for pharma companies are published and negative ones are buried.

[redpost]

There's a big difference between outright falsification of results and not publishing a paper because it doesn't support the sponsorers agenda.

[legalalien]

It?s not about falsification - it?s about selective measures and selective interpretation. I think Rockets is right on this one - it?s almost always possible to find people

who will spin data to fit the argument you are making. That?s hardly news.

[Rockets]

Redpost - no because the pharmaceutical industry is held to much higher standards than other industries when it comes to the publication of such research - it has to be.

So no, the paper heralding the greenness of the logistics industry, published in the logistics industry chartered institutes' house magazine, that is authored by a fellow of said chartered institute, that comes to no discernible conclusions, is full of if, buts and maybes and makes some glaringly obvious conclusions/overlooks some key factors to find the answer they want, that is so dated that it makes the info presented absolutely meaningless now - for example, how many delivery companies now return to the house to pick up unwanted parcels - is not the same status as an independently peer-reviewed article based on independently peer-reviewed research about a vaccine trial in The Lancet?

Anyway, back to the original point - do you believe that home deliveries are not contributing to the increase in traffic on residential roads?

[redpost]

I know that home delivery services act as aggregators of goods and reduce traffic to varying degrees depending upon the deliverees propensity to use a car for shopping.

The milkman of old days served the same purpose - customers don't need to go down the shops for milk

The postman today serves the same purpose - no one needs to go down the delivery office for post

It can be proved formally with probability and graph theory.

[legalalien]

There?s a piece around delivery times / speed of delivery to be considered presumably? I have milk delivered, same times, same days every week and same with groceries, I have a ?green? slot weekly or fortnightly which is at the same time as close neighbours so we?re on a fixed delivery circuit. If I start ordering all manner of things on Amazon prime with 24 hour delivery, that?s when the extra traffic starts...

[malumbu]

Yep but all that horse manure from milk deliveries. Although there were the benefits to your roses and some of the birds that fed on the insects. (when I was in Glasgow in the 80s there were still horse drawn milk carts, and the traditional rag and bone man could still be seen in London up until the 90s and horse drawn drays until the Youngs brewery was closed in the 00s

[Rockets]

redpost Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I know that home delivery services act as

> aggregators of goods and reduce traffic to varying

> degrees depending upon the deliverees propensity

> to use a car for shopping.

>

> The milkman of old days served the same purpose -

> customers don't need to go down the shops for

> milk

>

> The postman today serves the same purpose - no one

> needs to go down the delivery office for post

>

> It can be proved formally with probability and

> graph theory.

But the milkman of old used to deliver everyone's milk in an electric vehicle and they did everyone's milk on the street. Now someone gets their milk from Ocado, another from Sainsburys, another from Tesco etc etc etc.....our street is filled with the constant sound of beeping supermarket vans reversing and that deep thudding of deliveries being unloaded in the back of a van. And everyone uses a different supplier. Now grocery deliveries are invariably a like for like replacement of a car journey but as legal says once you get into Amazon territory that's when the volumes increase massively. So net/net I am not at all convinced that home deliveries are reducing traffic at all, in fact the complete opposite is true.

[legalalien]

Our milkman still delivers in an electric vehicle and does quite a lot of the houses in the street. Maybe we are in a timewarp? I wonder

If we might come to an agreement on street-wide grocery delivery. Food for thought/ thought for food.

[Rockets]

The milkman is definitely having something of a renaissance and I am all for it!

[northernmonkey]

So would i be if the ones in East Dulwich didn't deliver at 2:30 am in a diesel van that they leave running and sort through their stock for ages on the street. Choose your milk supplier carefully if you think its a green option - seems they're not all equal!

[Rockets]

Just got this message from the ticketing company organising the ED LTN meetings on Friday:

Get excited! Your event East Dulwich Experimental Highways Measures - Community Meeting is coming up soon!

The excitement is building!

[legalalien]

There's a written response from the cabinet member to Mr Rates' question, added to the supplementary agenda in advance of tonight's assembly meeting:

"

Recent changes to the measures in Dulwich have involved a move to timed restrictions on many roads. This was partly in response to the area wide traffic counts that indicated that the ?peaks? for traffic volumes were spread over much longer times than the usual morning and afternoon peaks.

The measures introduced in Dulwich were also based on the previous consultations undertaken over the past 18 months as part of Our Healthy Streets Dulwich, and initially included those measures that had a majority of local resident support.

We will be carrying out an in depth review process and consultation that targets the local community. People will be asked to supply an address so that we can understand how the views of the residents compare with the general feedback from the wider area that we are receiving. We will also be continuing our conversations with local groups. We are already looking at and working to ensure that the issues raised by our most vulnerable residents and those with specific acute needs are dealt with prior to that process.

Whilst it was necessary to take immediate action in response to a public health emergency, the council has always planned to carry out an in depth discussion on these measures, as it has done in the past with any major change. However any really meaningful discussions around long term sustainable change take a considerable amount of time. For this reason it has not been possible to have these conversations prior to taking action to revise the first phases; however we will be carrying out detailed engagement before any decisions are made on the future of these measures."

http://moderngov.southwark.gov.uk/documents/b50012428/Supplemental%20Agenda%20No.%202%20Wednesday%2025-Nov-2020%2019.00%20Council%20Assembly.pdf?T=9

The answers to the two additional questions asked by LD councillors are also in this document. Note this:

"....This does make directly monitoring emissions very difficult as they are subject to so many other sources. In order to ensure a scientific approach we must isolate what we are measuring from other factors. The answer to this is simple; less road traffic equals less pollution. The council is working to achieve a net reduction in the numbers of vehicles on our roads and this is the primary measure that we will judge schemes against. Obviously, there will be some displaced traffic, and we recognise that we will need to monitor the area around these schemes too to ensure there is a true net decrease, not just displacement."

Note, seems to suggest that the measure is number of vehicles without account of increased traffic or increased journey times - which would suggest traffic counts at particular points remain the main measure.

[Abe_froeman]

That response is really quite disappointing. Flies in the face of what Mcash said they would do to listen to people.

[tiddles]

Hope the businesses on Melbourne grove are included and listened to.

[spark67]

We live on Ashbourne, so when they shut Melbourne grove, it just meant people who live on Ashbourne now drive up our road as they can't enter from ED grove, There is a lot of car owners on Melbourne & the roads off of it, so we now have increased traffic at the expensive of them having less.. also have noticed people drive up Ashbourne to go through Melbourne to exit at the Lordship lane end near Whatley road when there are traffic queues on the roundabout end of the lane.. if this is permanent then I don't see why Ashbourne and Chesterfield can't have their Melbourne exits closed, and Melbourne residents can enter via their lordship lane exit... why should one street benefit from decreased traffic at the expense of others ?

[Rockets]

The council's response is interesting - I do wonder if they are still pursuing a path of dividing and conquering and focusing their attention on getting support from residents on the roads that have been closed. The fact they reference the OHS "consultation" had the majority of local support is concerning because we know there have been worries that that consultation was deeply flawed and infiltrated by people, like cycle lobby groups, from outside the area and there were mass registrations from single households.

It would be interesting to understand how the council will plan to use the address system as they have used this before (during the CPZ consultation)as a mechanism to filter and skew the results in their favour. The views of those who happen to live on a closed road should not be allowed to hold any more weight than those who are having to live with the displacement a mile further down the road. Remember that the much heralded Waltham Forest LTNs caused a permanent 28% increase in traffic on a road 3.1 miles away from the outer most edge of the LTN.

[malumbu]

A nice video of people walking and cycling in Dulwich. I'm sure others can post images of congestion but I prefer this one. https://twitter.com/CleanAirDulwich/status/1331299959975632896

[alice]

Unfortunately I am unable to view. Blocked.

[Metallic]

malumbu Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> A nice video of people walking and cycling in

> Dulwich. I'm sure others can post images of

> congestion but I prefer this one.

> https://twitter.com/CleanAirDulwich/status/1331299

> 959975632896

We all prefer that one but that isn't reality on roads with the displaced traffic allowing this idyll. My road is deserted, Lordship Lane is packed. Which, incidentally is the road I have to sit on for ages if I need to drive anywhere, as it has so much displaced traffic.

[Dulwichgirl82]

The thing I notice on here is the nursery on east dulwich grove asking for a balanced view. They have a different view out of their windows now sadly.

malumbu Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> A nice video of people walking and cycling in

> Dulwich. I'm sure others can post images of

> congestion but I prefer this one.

> https://twitter.com/CleanAirDulwich/status/1331299

> 959975632896