LTN: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3

[northernmonkey]

I'm still interested in how this could work. There is already the 37 bus that people constantly complain about not being reliable / frequent enough but it does an east west route. Unless there were a fleet of green busses surely at best this would be one per hour so how would it make any discernable difference.

Would also be interested as to how would it be long term viable, would it need to be community funded forever?

[Penguin68]

Re the Green Bus idea - East: West routes, where now served, tend to be very long and convoluted, which means it can take an hour on the bus to get where a car could take you in 15 minutes (because of the circuity of the route chosen). What we need is something which can compete with car journey times, if we are to encourage use (taking into account the need to stop and start). Short, local routes where just a couple or four of buses could offer short wait times would significantly alter (I'm guessing) take-up and use. With perhaps more buses 'on' during commute and school pick-up times. I think that was the sort of route which Robin was thinking of...?

Oh, and whilst we are still on very limited numbers allowed on a bus because of Covid-19 - this wouldn't be an economic runner anyway... but come (fingers firmly crossed) the spring...?

[Cozza01]

The green bus deals with very local traffic but really if the problem is cross traffic... Wandsworth/Clapham to Dulwich and vice versa one solution would be to sort the train out. It is possible to go from East Dulwich to Clapham Junction but the wait at West Norwood is actually longer than the journey!

It was once proposed by TFL to have a direct train link via the Dulwich stations between Victoria and London Bridge, so the trainline infrastructure must already be in place to send trains this way. Even if you only ran trains in peak hours, this would remove a significant amount of school and other traffic as children could use the Wandsworth stations.

It would also allow Dulwich to have far better connections out via Clapham Junction which would make train commuting preferable.

[redpost]

I'm sorry but these proposed bus services just aren't going to happen ever

there isn't the patronage

there isn't the budget to subsidise journeys and buy millions of pounds worth of buses

.. and any decrease in congestion and car journey times will just get taken up again by new journeys

it's not the 1960's any more, car owenership and usage are at all time highs

In the 80's I was at university in sheffield, there was an extremely comprehensive bus service making it very easy and cheap (10p flat ticket) to get around. In relative terms, the bus services now are a skeleton of what they used to be.

People have paid the fixed cost of owning a car and will drive it whenever they can, the carrot doesn't work anymore (unless it's a shard sized carrot), the only option is the stick and incremental improvements to public transport. Just being realistic here.

[malumbu]

Good to have a reality check but..... government is saying the opposite re: a bus revolution, even if they have watered down the message on the stick.

Still interested in what this green bus service is, why it is different/special.

Bus use in London did increase massively in the last decade or so, before the curve flattened and dipped a little in recent years. It can be done.

We are roughly on the same page.

[alex_b]

redpost Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> it's not the 1960's any more, car owenership and

> usage are at all time highs

I can?t find any data to support that. What I can find (e.g. https://www.centreforlondon.org/reader/parking-kerbside-mangement/chapter-1/#travel-habits-are-changing-but-modal-shift-is-slow) suggests flat or slightly declining car ownership and usage in London over the last 15 years. As someone else posted up thread there has been a dramatic rise in the use of residential roads in London coinciding with the rise of navigation apps but these seem to be journeys displaced from major roads.

Do you have anything to suggest that car ownership or usage are at an all time high?

[Rockets]

I think we can all agree that something has to be done about transportation links in the area, especially east/west. There is a reason why Dulwich performs poorly on PTAL scores and that is a lack of adequate public transportation through and across the area. And, to be honest, it's why many parts of Dulwich have changed so much over the last 20 years or so - the lack of good transport options kept house prices down until a point when the prices were too good to be overlooked for this close to London.

[Rockets]

alex_b Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> redpost Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > it's not the 1960's any more, car owenership

> and

> > usage are at all time highs

>

> I can?t find any data to support that. What I can

> find (e.g.

> https://www.centreforlondon.org/reader/parking-ker

> bside-mangement/chapter-1/#travel-habits-are-chang

> ing-but-modal-shift-is-slow) suggests flat or

> slightly declining car ownership and usage in

> London over the last 15 years. As someone else

> posted up thread there has been a dramatic rise in

> the use of residential roads in London coinciding

> with the rise of navigation apps but these seem to

> be journeys displaced from major roads.

>

> Do you have anything to suggest that car ownership

> or usage are at an all time high?

Private car ownership in London has been decreasing for some time now (although the further out of London you get where transport links are not as good and so the decline is slower). If anyone bothers to do any proper analysis I think we will find that delivery companies are responsible for a lot of the "increase" in residential road use. A couple of Ocado/Tesco/Sainsburys vans and a couple of Amazon deliveries on a quiet residential road can massively "increase" the % of daily usage for that street.

As shopping habits move online so the negative cost has been an increase in cars on side roads - it gives the pro-closure lobby some nice headline stats but scratch beneath the surface and you can start to piece parts of the jigsaw together.

I re-post the Guardian article I found over the weekend which digs deeper into London's challenges with "cars" and the fact London's private car ownership is falling.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/11/how-london-got-rid-of-private-cars-and-grew-more-congested-than-ever

[northernmonkey]

Would still love to understand more about this green bus idea. Its all great everyone saying 'finally something we can get behind' and in principle its hard to object to improved public transport, but is it viable? Its sounding more like a fleet of busses are what people want and I'm not clear where the funding for that would be and it wouldn't be insubstantial. If this has been thought through though it should definitely be pushed and i'm pretty sure there would be widespread support.

[malumbu]

Lots of reasons for declining car use in London, obvious ones like congestion and parking. I expect more joined up public transport in particular contactless/Oyster had a big effect, joining overground services to the tube via the Overground (always wondered why they called a tube line this lame name), and people tending to learn later in life - teenagers having free travel, and the cost of insurance be it their own or using their parents. Spent time in Northern Ireland where passing your test at 17 is a right of passage, then getting a hot hatch and sadly for many crashing them. They have a different driving test out there reflecting differences with GB - I think we have caught up a little with respect to 'independent driving' in the practical test.

I meant to also say that my understanding is the level of car use is not that sensitive to cost. Relationship with fuel price is 'inelastic' (demand curve) ie price goes up and car use doesn't necessarily respond to this. Not increasing the fuel duty was an error. I'm not sure that sunken costs is that much of a factor in deciding whether to drive, as opposed to 'convenience' and journey time. I shouldn't go into anecdotal evidence but I know that there are many who would prefer to be in a steel box on their own, with their own private space, rather than share with others irrespective of whether it is quicker or not. If cost comes into the decision making I expect that most simply think of fuel costs rather than full cost of motoring in doing comparisons with public transport.

[rupert james]

There is always widespread support for things like this but what has happened to the Coal line and Peckham lido?

Again a wonderful idea amongst the what a super idea crowd.

Anyone know what has happened?

[alex_b]

rupert james Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> There is always widespread support for things like

> this but what has happened to the Coal line and

> Peckham lido?

>

> Again a wonderful idea amongst the what a super

> idea crowd.

>

> Anyone know what has happened?

Latest Coal Line update on their website: http://www.peckhamcoalline.org/blog/summer-autumn-2020-update

The last post on Peckham Lido's facebook was 7th October and said: "This morning we met with our design team, architects Studio Octopi and Tibbalds Planning and Urban Design. We?re excited to report that they?ve made excellent progress. We can?t wait to update you further. To assist them with their work, we?re looking for your memories of Peckham Rye Lido up to its closure in 1987. When did you swim there and for how long? What are your memories of the pool and surrounding facilities? What did it feel like to swim amongst the trees of the park? Do you remember what it cost? Did you always pay or slip in over the fence!? We?d like to include some of these memories in the next stage report, alongside any more photos or memorabilia you can find. You can send them to us on social media or by email [email protected] Many thanks for your help and patience as we work towards rebuilding Peckham Lido!"

Both sound like they're still going concerns despite the lockdown, I guess these things take longer than expected though.

[redpost]

i think you've got this very wrong pinning it on delivery companies.

Take DPD for example, they visit our street once a day. The driver makes around 200 drops in the area, driving short distances between stops. Often dropping multiple parcels on one stop. Likewise parcelforce & hermes.

Occasional visit from the smaller couriers: DHL, Fedex, UPS, city sprint etc

And then white amazon vans (contractors), one drop in the morning. A more dispersed drop in the evening for same day delivery.

Compare with everyone driving to the shops to make a purchase, and you'll see that deliveries act as aggregators and are very efficient. Software calculates the optimum sequence of drops to minimise distance even taking hills into account (don't go up and down the same hill)

Supermarket deliveries aren't so good, they can't carry as many deliveries, are time limited (cold ness) and don't have the density of drops. But again, certainly a lot more efficient than everyone driving to the supermarket.

Rockets Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> alex_b Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > redpost Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > it's not the 1960's any more, car owenership

> > and

> > > usage are at all time highs

> >

> > I can?t find any data to support that. What I

> can

> > find (e.g.

> >

> https://www.centreforlondon.org/reader/parking-ker

>

> >

> bside-mangement/chapter-1/#travel-habits-are-chang

>

> > ing-but-modal-shift-is-slow) suggests flat or

> > slightly declining car ownership and usage in

> > London over the last 15 years. As someone else

> > posted up thread there has been a dramatic rise

> in

> > the use of residential roads in London

> coinciding

> > with the rise of navigation apps but these seem

> to

> > be journeys displaced from major roads.

> >

> > Do you have anything to suggest that car

> ownership

> > or usage are at an all time high?

>

>

> Private car ownership in London has been

> decreasing for some time now (although the further

> out of London you get where transport links are

> not as good and so the decline is slower). If

> anyone bothers to do any proper analysis I think

> we will find that delivery companies are

> responsible for a lot of the "increase" in

> residential road use. A couple of

> Ocado/Tesco/Sainsburys vans and a couple of Amazon

> deliveries on a quiet residential road can

> massively "increase" the % of daily usage for that

> street.

>

> As shopping habits move online so the negative

> cost has been an increase in cars on side roads -

> it gives the pro-closure lobby some nice headline

> stats but scratch beneath the surface and you can

> start to piece parts of the jigsaw together.

>

> I re-post the Guardian article I found over the

> weekend which digs deeper into London's challenges

> with "cars" and the fact London's private car

> ownership is falling.

>

>

> https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/11/h

> ow-london-got-rid-of-private-cars-and-grew-more-co

> ngested-than-ever

[malumbu]

Issue with deliveries are the amount of stuff that is returned. No stats to hand but reducing the amount of stuff being bought on spec and then returned free of charge will all add up.

There's lots of good stuff about consolidating deliveries before the final destination, increasing local deliveries by bike, and the use of pick up points. Oh the howls of protests as our streets become congested with e cargo bikes!

[Rockets]

redpost Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> i think you've got this very wrong pinning it on

> delivery companies.

>

> Take DPD for example, they visit our street once a

> day. The driver makes around 200 drops in the

> area, driving short distances between stops. Often

> dropping multiple parcels on one stop. Likewise

> parcelforce & hermes.

>

> Occasional visit from the smaller couriers: DHL,

> Fedex, UPS, city sprint etc

>

> And then white amazon vans (contractors), one drop

> in the morning. A more dispersed drop in the

> evening for same day delivery.

>

> Compare with everyone driving to the shops to make

> a purchase, and you'll see that deliveries act as

> aggregators and are very efficient. Software

> calculates the optimum sequence of drops to

> minimise distance even taking hills into account

> (don't go up and down the same hill)

>

> Supermarket deliveries aren't so good, they can't

> carry as many deliveries, are time limited (cold

> ness) and don't have the density of drops. But

> again, certainly a lot more efficient than

> everyone driving to the supermarket.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Rockets Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > alex_b Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > redpost Wrote:

> > >

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> >

> > > -----

> > > > it's not the 1960's any more, car

> owenership

> > > and

> > > > usage are at all time highs

> > >

> > > I can?t find any data to support that. What I

> > can

> > > find (e.g.

> > >

> >

> https://www.centreforlondon.org/reader/parking-ker

>

> >

> > >

> >

> bside-mangement/chapter-1/#travel-habits-are-chang

>

> >

> > > ing-but-modal-shift-is-slow) suggests flat or

> > > slightly declining car ownership and usage in

> > > London over the last 15 years. As someone

> else

> > > posted up thread there has been a dramatic

> rise

> > in

> > > the use of residential roads in London

> > coinciding

> > > with the rise of navigation apps but these

> seem

> > to

> > > be journeys displaced from major roads.

> > >

> > > Do you have anything to suggest that car

> > ownership

> > > or usage are at an all time high?

> >

> >

> > Private car ownership in London has been

> > decreasing for some time now (although the

> further

> > out of London you get where transport links are

> > not as good and so the decline is slower). If

> > anyone bothers to do any proper analysis I

> think

> > we will find that delivery companies are

> > responsible for a lot of the "increase" in

> > residential road use. A couple of

> > Ocado/Tesco/Sainsburys vans and a couple of

> Amazon

> > deliveries on a quiet residential road can

> > massively "increase" the % of daily usage for

> that

> > street.

> >

> > As shopping habits move online so the negative

> > cost has been an increase in cars on side roads

> -

> > it gives the pro-closure lobby some nice

> headline

> > stats but scratch beneath the surface and you

> can

> > start to piece parts of the jigsaw together.

> >

> > I re-post the Guardian article I found over the

> > weekend which digs deeper into London's

> challenges

> > with "cars" and the fact London's private car

> > ownership is falling.

> >

> >

> >

> https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/11/h

>

> >

> ow-london-got-rid-of-private-cars-and-grew-more-co

>

> > ngested-than-ever

Home deliveries are not efficient, especially when they a delivering goods sourced in Asia and sent on incredibly polluting cargo ships. Online shopping invariably means people buy more which results in more deliveries being made - more often than not in high polluting diesel vehicles that are doing very short stop start journeys. Amazon is under huge amounts of pressure to stop same day deliveries due to the negative environmental impacts of the "I need it now" culture. Often they don't need it now they just want it now. Amazon, and other online retailers do little to stop multiple deliveries to the same address on any day.

Your DPD example just illustrates the point. If that driver makes 200 drops in a given area I guarantee that most of that delivery driver's time is spent on side roads - that driver is contributing massively to the number of "journeys" made on sideroads - if they have 2 drops per road they will hit 100 different roads.

I am convinced that private car journeys are decreasing but it is the shift to the home delivery culture that is creating the increase in vehicle journeys and I am not convinced that goes away if you close roads in the area.

[Rockets]

malumbu Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Issue with deliveries are the amount of stuff that

> is returned. No stats to hand but reducing the

> amount of stuff being bought on spec and then

> returned free of charge will all add up.

>

> There's lots of good stuff about consolidating

> deliveries before the final destination,

> increasing local deliveries by bike, and the use

> of pick up points. Oh the howls of protests as

> our streets become congested with e cargo bikes!

Malumbu - I agree but rather ironically returns are far more efficient as they get funnelled into a single channel - most people have to return their goods via the Post Office or a Collect+ or equivalent store and often walk to do it. How many times have people been in the Post Office to find themselves behind someone with a bag full of parcels for return! ;-)

Much more has to be done to solve the home delivery conundrum and all the major distributors are experimenting with drones (both airborne and road-borne) so they can take a larger vehicle that then distribute parcels for the last mile via drones and the like (the road drones aren't seen as a solution as they can get stolen).

I would love to see more local deliveries by cargo bike but I suspect the selection of goods is the bigger challenge there - and if I am typical of most if I want something from Lordship Lane I walk there to get it myself! ;-)

[redpost]

eh?

"Home deliveries are not efficient, especially when they a delivering goods sourced in Asia and sent on incredibly polluting cargo ships"

so everything bought online is made in asia? as opposed to everything bought in the shops is not made in asia?

"Online shopping invariably means people buy more which results in more deliveries being made"

Overconsumption and buying too much chinese cr@p is entirely another issue, and irrelevant to this debate.

And lets take an extreme example, which illustrates the point:

... one DPD van doing 200 drops on 100 roads = 100 road trips

... 200 people driving to the shops, driving on average 10 roads = 2000 road trips

it's very basic math

As I recall Rockets, you drove to the tulse hill to get a tin of paint and then moaned on here about how long it took you. This is the exact case where ordering it online will cause less congestion.

Rockets Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> redpost Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > i think you've got this very wrong pinning it

> on

> > delivery companies.

> >

> > Take DPD for example, they visit our street once

> a

> > day. The driver makes around 200 drops in the

> > area, driving short distances between stops.

> Often

> > dropping multiple parcels on one stop. Likewise

> > parcelforce & hermes.

> >

> > Occasional visit from the smaller couriers:

> DHL,

> > Fedex, UPS, city sprint etc

> >

> > And then white amazon vans (contractors), one

> drop

> > in the morning. A more dispersed drop in the

> > evening for same day delivery.

> >

> > Compare with everyone driving to the shops to

> make

> > a purchase, and you'll see that deliveries act

> as

> > aggregators and are very efficient. Software

> > calculates the optimum sequence of drops to

> > minimise distance even taking hills into

> account

> > (don't go up and down the same hill)

> >

> > Supermarket deliveries aren't so good, they

> can't

> > carry as many deliveries, are time limited

> (cold

> > ness) and don't have the density of drops. But

> > again, certainly a lot more efficient than

> > everyone driving to the supermarket.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Rockets Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > alex_b Wrote:

> > >

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> >

> > > -----

> > > > redpost Wrote:

> > > >

> > >

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> >

> > >

> > > > -----

> > > > > it's not the 1960's any more, car

> > owenership

> > > > and

> > > > > usage are at all time highs

> > > >

> > > > I can?t find any data to support that. What

> I

> > > can

> > > > find (e.g.

> > > >

> > >

> >

> https://www.centreforlondon.org/reader/parking-ker

>

> >

> > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> bside-mangement/chapter-1/#travel-habits-are-chang

>

> >

> > >

> > > > ing-but-modal-shift-is-slow) suggests flat

> or

> > > > slightly declining car ownership and usage

> in

> > > > London over the last 15 years. As someone

> > else

> > > > posted up thread there has been a dramatic

> > rise

> > > in

> > > > the use of residential roads in London

> > > coinciding

> > > > with the rise of navigation apps but these

> > seem

> > > to

> > > > be journeys displaced from major roads.

> > > >

> > > > Do you have anything to suggest that car

> > > ownership

> > > > or usage are at an all time high?

> > >

> > >

> > > Private car ownership in London has been

> > > decreasing for some time now (although the

> > further

> > > out of London you get where transport links

> are

> > > not as good and so the decline is slower). If

> > > anyone bothers to do any proper analysis I

> > think

> > > we will find that delivery companies are

> > > responsible for a lot of the "increase" in

> > > residential road use. A couple of

> > > Ocado/Tesco/Sainsburys vans and a couple of

> > Amazon

> > > deliveries on a quiet residential road can

> > > massively "increase" the % of daily usage for

> > that

> > > street.

> > >

> > > As shopping habits move online so the

> negative

> > > cost has been an increase in cars on side

> roads

> > -

> > > it gives the pro-closure lobby some nice

> > headline

> > > stats but scratch beneath the surface and you

> > can

> > > start to piece parts of the jigsaw together.

> > >

> > > I re-post the Guardian article I found over

> the

> > > weekend which digs deeper into London's

> > challenges

> > > with "cars" and the fact London's private car

> > > ownership is falling.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/11/h

>

> >

> > >

> >

> ow-london-got-rid-of-private-cars-and-grew-more-co

>

> >

> > > ngested-than-ever

>

>

> Home deliveries are not efficient, especially when

> they a delivering goods sourced in Asia and sent

> on incredibly polluting cargo ships. Online

> shopping invariably means people buy more which

> results in more deliveries being made - more often

> than not in high polluting diesel vehicles that

> are doing very short stop start journeys. Amazon

> is under huge amounts of pressure to stop same day

> deliveries due to the negative environmental

> impacts of the "I need it now" culture. Often they

> don't need it now they just want it now. Amazon,

> and other online retailers do little to stop

> multiple deliveries to the same address on any

> day.

>

> Your DPD example just illustrates the point. If

> that driver makes 200 drops in a given area I

> guarantee that most of that delivery driver's time

> is spent on side roads - that driver is

> contributing massively to the number of "journeys"

> made on sideroads - if they have 2 drops per road

> they will hit 100 different roads.

>

> I am convinced that private car journeys are

> decreasing but it is the shift to the home

> delivery culture that is creating the increase in

> vehicle journeys and I am not convinced that goes

> away if you close roads in the area.

[redpost]

http://www.greenlogistics.org/SiteResources/343c5312-af8f-4cc0-a271-4191cb2ccdff_Edwards-McKinnon-ShoppingTripOrHomeDelivery-FocusLogisticsJuly2009.pdf

1) avg home delivery = 181 g of co2

2) dedicated bus trip to shop = 1265 g of co2

3) dedicated car trip = 4274 g of co2

[Rockets]

Redpost - firstly I didn't say everything bought online comes from Asia - you seemed to have interpreted that incorrectly.

Secondly, you're basic math is just that. You're making the incorrect presumption that each home delivery purchase would equate to a single car journey. Which it doesn't. There is a whole different psychology to home shopping and it is designed to stimulate more, often unnecessary, purchases.

Consider that the phenomenon of going on a shopping trip where people would get in their car and drive to a shopping centre or get on the train to go shopping in London is very much a thing of the past. People would go to a single venue and purchase many things from many different retailers and take them home with them. They don't do that anymore - it's why shopping centres are struggling and we have the whole concept of not only death of the high street but death of the out of town shopping centre. A new generation of shoppers will now forgo venturing outside of their house and go to those retailers online as 1) the pricing is often more competitive 2) they don't have to leave their home 3) it can be delivered in days (if not the same day) and 4) they avoid the wasted trip syndrome if the retailer doesn't have what they want.

So it's not a simple as your maths suggests. People don't drive to 10 different places to buy 10 different goods but they will go to 10 different online retailers to have them delivered.

Oh, and one of our memories must be fading as my Tulse Hill journey analogy was exactly that - if I remember correctly we were discussing journeys to and from Tulse Hill should the council proceed with their OHS folly of closing Dulwich Village to through traffic and effectively creating traffic chaos on the A205 etc - which oh, they didn't manage to get through via OHS but Covid instead...... If I have that wrong feel free to correct me ;-).

[Rockets]

redpost Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> http://www.greenlogistics.org/SiteResources/343c53

> 12-af8f-4cc0-a271-4191cb2ccdff_Edwards-McKinnon-Sh

> oppingTripOrHomeDelivery-FocusLogisticsJuly2009.pd

> f

>

> 1) avg home delivery = 181 g of co2

> 2) dedicated bus trip to shop = 1265 g of co2

> 3) dedicated car trip = 4274 g of co2

Redpost - really......you are quoting stats from a report commissioned by the Chartered Institute of Logistics and Transport....that is about as balanced and believable as an article in the Guardian on LTNs penned by Peter Walker.....;-)

[malumbu]

I'll stop grumping about politics. My new obsession is posting the whole of an earlier thread, which makes it very difficult to keep on top of multiple threads. Just cut and paste a snippet.

Another big issue is taking freight off the road. Not as easy as it sounds as it can be quicker and more reliable to go from London to Inverness by truck rather than train.

I'll post some useful links but Only Connect is on now and it quizzing night on the Beeb

[legalalien]

Quick reminder that the Council Assembly meeting is tomorrow evening. A supplementary agenda has been posted on the website, this includes two LTN related questions from the public:

1. QUESTION FROM SACHIN SHAH TO THE CABINET MEMBER FOR LEISURE, ENVIRONMENT AND ROADS

Is it the Council?s intention to channel traffic into residential roads where it can affect the lives of residents more than when kept on main roads ? with more noise, pollution and danger on foot/cycle? The changes to The Cut have left residential roads bearing the burden of displaced traffic.

2. QUESTION FROM CLIVE RATES TO THE CABINET MEMBER FOR LEISURE, ENVIRONMENT AND ROADS

In consultation, the aim of proposed roads measures were "to tackle only through traffic at peak hours? and to ?minimise inconvenience to local journeys?. Given that the measures in Dulwich Village are not consistent with those aims, how can Southwark claim there is significant support among residents for those measures?

These are in addition to the two questions being asked by LD councillors, mentioned previously.

Lots of other areas of discussion. Info at http://moderngov.southwark.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=132&MId=6773&Ver=4, will be live-streamed on YouTube.

[redpost]

I defer to your superior knowledge gleaned from anecdotes, twitter and the daily mail.

After all, what the heck do a Doctor of logistics and a Professor of logistics, with dozens of peer reviewed papers on logistics, know about logistics?

Rockets Wrote:

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> redpost Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> >

> http://www.greenlogistics.org/SiteResources/343c53

>

> >

> 12-af8f-4cc0-a271-4191cb2ccdff_Edwards-McKinnon-Sh

>

> >

> oppingTripOrHomeDelivery-FocusLogisticsJuly2009.pd

>

> > f

> >

> > 1) avg home delivery = 181 g of co2

> > 2) dedicated bus trip to shop = 1265 g of co2

> > 3) dedicated car trip = 4274 g of co2

>

> Redpost - really......you are quoting stats from a

> report commissioned by the Chartered Institute of

> Logistics and Transport....that is about as

> balanced and believable as an article in the

> Guardian on LTNs penned by Peter Walker.....;-)

[Rockets]

Redpost - I am sorry to pushback on your attempt to stereo-type and pigeon-hole but I hate the Daily Mail and all it stands for! ;-) Funny how that accusing people of being a Daily Mail reader becomes the go-to position for many when the questioning or debate doesn't go their way.

They may be professors but it it is clear they were commissioned by the CILT to write the report...and I suggest the people who commissioned the report knew exactly what they wanted the research to show.....it's called a pay for play ....and it's like when Henry Kissinger addressed a group of journalists by saying: "Does anyone have any questions for my answers".

[alex_b]

Rockets, it sounds like you?re accusing a number of academics and their professional society of research misconduct. Do you have any evidence to demonstrate this or to counter the measurements and assumptions they?ve set out in their report?