LTN: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3

[first mate]

Malumbu,

Amazed, given you are a cycling instructor, you did not already know about that SC link!? Perhaps you were just being snide, though surely not given your previous comments about passive aggressive behaviour.

Useful link for anyone for or against, guess that was my reason for posting it 🙂

[alex_b]

Rockets Wrote:

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> On the subject of blocking has anyone else noticed

> that The Guardian seems to have turned off

> comments on LTN articles? Or was it that you could

> only ever leave comments on Opinion pieces?

The Guardian massively reduced the number of articles that had comments on a couple of years ago, citing the difficulty of moderation. I think now it?s only some (not all) opinion pieces and the ?live updating? articles.

[Rockets]

Speaking of the Guardian a very interesting pre-lockdown article that looked at congestion, well worth a read.....

This quote in particular stuck out for me in light of what we are seeing today with the LTNs...

For McNamara, there is a clear class dimension to the debate: ?The myth of the anti-car lobby is that it?s someone in a Rolls-Royce flicking cigar ash out of the window at the cyclists. It?s the working class that are driving the commercial vehicles in central London, and they are being forced out by the wealthy inner-London elite, who can afford to live in Islington and want to ride their bike to St Pancras. They want to sit in Oxford Circus and drink their skinny caramel coconut latte without any thought about how the constituent parts got there. And they want something, they buy it on their phone and they expect it delivered the next day.?

But then, as Travers says: ?The truth is that almost everyone using the streets ? cabs, buses, pedestrians and cyclists ? has a sense of entitlement.?

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/11/how-london-got-rid-of-private-cars-and-grew-more-congested-than-ever?__twitter_impression=true

[DulwichCentral]

Rockets Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Speaking of the Guardian a very interesting

> pre-lockdown article that looked at congestion,

> well worth a read.....

>

> This quote in particular stuck out for me in light

> of what we are seeing today with the LTNs...

>

> For McNamara, there is a clear class dimension to

> the debate: ?The myth of the anti-car lobby is

> that it?s someone in a Rolls-Royce flicking cigar

> ash out of the window at the cyclists. It?s the

> working class that are driving the commercial

> vehicles in central London, and they are being

> forced out by the wealthy inner-London elite, who

> can afford to live in Islington and want to ride

> their bike to St Pancras. They want to sit in

> Oxford Circus and drink their skinny caramel

> coconut latte without any thought about how the

> constituent parts got there. And they want

> something, they buy it on their phone and they

> expect it delivered the next day.?

>

> But then, as Travers says: ?The truth is that

> almost everyone using the streets ? cabs, buses,

> pedestrians and cyclists ? has a sense of

> entitlement.?

>

I don't understand why reducing traffic and encouraging active travel has to be a class war in this country. It's like Brexit - which in my opinion was the 'elite' pretending to support the 'left behinds' in order to get what they wanted.

[Metallic]

malumbu - where have I said:

"Metallic, your post is precious and I'm afraid I have to break my vow of silence with regards to debating this issue. All a bit throwing insults in the play ground - my dad is bigger than yours and cyclists don't pay road tax and aren't insured (we've been there before so please don't debate). For the first time I mouthed the words Nimby Yes Nimby. For the hard of hearing Nimby."

I live on a closed road (virtually), that I never asked for. I have said enough times on here that I am concerned for all the people living a life of hell because Southwark Council decided to do these road schemes. Living on a road full of displaced traffic, especially when kids are walking to one of the many schools, is not my idea at all for a great outcome for anyone.

The point I did make is that where I live has probably been "improved" for a load of people who don't live here.

Generalisation. I repeat, generalisation.

[rch]

Apologies for disappearing again, but I?ve been following the discussions even though I haven?t been able to post. Well done to many regular posters for some of their observations

Again, this is a hugely complicated, multiple layered issue so, because I don?t have time to type out all the layers, I?ll try to jump in and reply point by point when possible, so apologies for lack of continuity.

As some of you know, I tried to address most of these issues when I was a ward councillor from 2006-2014, but many solutions were blocked by political machinations, which I found enormously frustrating.

Back in 2006/07 there was a campaign by local Dulwich Village residents to close the junction in exactly the way it?s now been closed. Then, just four years ago, in 2015/16, there was also a campaign by East Dulwich residents to close the southern section of Melbourne Grove (where I have lived for over 30 years). So, none of this is new...

In the case of the Dulwich Village junction closure, the council highway engineers spent MONTHS explaining to me why this would be such a bad idea... and now it?s totally surreal watching everything that they predicted happening, especially the intense displacement of traffic which is now causing problems in other locations.

To address the volume of traffic in a more positive manner, the engineers came up with several different options, one of which we consulted on and had funding for, but this was blocked by politicians.

In the case of the Melbourne Grove South Barrier, the engineers also came up with a different option, which has been buried. I actually have a copy of the feasibility study, which cost ?10,000 of council funding, here somewhere.

From my perspective, I haven?t driven a car for over 20 years (including the entire time that I served as a councillor), so I?m actually practicing what most LTN campaigners are preaching. But ironically, having my feet on the ground every day has given me a different perspective.

I?m not anti-cycling, although I can?t cycle for health reasons... and I?ve tried repeatedly to create ways that are more conducive to cycling, which have hit dead ends.

As some of you know, I?ve been through every single road in the area and raised funding for highway and junction improvements wherever possible (which I?m still trying to do), working in tandem with council highway engineers... only to watch various solutions fall apart. So, bear in mind that I grasp a LOT of technicalities.

So, to watch what?s happening now at a huge expense of public funding is incredibly frustrating...

But, I genuinely believe that we need to stick together and move forwards, so I?m going to try to post some possible solutions which may still be viable.

[rch]

Two immediate observations...

Bear in mind that the new junction design that was built in Dulwich Village is incredibly flawed, which has contributed to a large amount of the active travel issues (it?s incredibly frustrating to use as a pedestrian). I pointed out some of the proposed flaws in the preliminary public consultation meetings and was shocked to see the flawed design implemented and ignored in some of the public consultations afterwards. So, from my perspective, there are some obvious tweaks that will need to be made to the DV junction design in the first instance, if the junction is reopened (as my understanding is that the ANPR solution isn?t viable)... but funding may not be immediately available for this.

Secondly... as many of you have posted over and over, the only way to get a significant number of local residents in the area (Dulwich and East Dulwich) out of their cars, due to the geographical distances and age demographics, is to improve the low level of east-west public transportation issues.

What most people don?t realise is that the council can actually fund a local bus service in tandem with TfL.

Several years ago I came within a millimetre of getting council funding allocated to what I called a Green Bus... a digital bus that ran in a circle connecting Dulwich Village, Half Moon Lane, and Lordship Lane, including all the schools in between. But this also hit political dead ends.

Then, over a year ago, I took part in a public meeting to discuss the ED CPZ consultation, whereupon I brought up the Green Bus solution again. The project manager chairing the meeting got visibly excited, stating that there was actually internal council funding that had been allocated for exactly this kind of solution - albeit in the north of the borough.

I was hoping that this alternative would feature in the consultation report recommendations, but this solution went dead... presumably because this funding was intended to be allocated to replace the RV1 service in the north of the borough, which has been a huge political issue.

I still think that a Green Bus connecting DV and ED would be one of the most pro-active solutions (in addition to cycling) to getting residents out of their cars for local journeys, but I suspect Covid will put this on hold. Yet, this option should definitely be flagged to councillors and cabinet members.

[legalalien]

Thanks Robin, I will look forward to seeing your suggestions, as a fellow pedestrian with what seem to be similar views. The ongoing black and white all-LTN vs no-LTN debate, however heartfelt, gets us nowhere. Schemes need to be looked at on a case by case basis, with room for some sensible give and take - and trial and error - that's the whole point of the experimental process.

(But while focusing on substance, we still imho need to keep calling out flaws in / non-compliance with government processes - which seem to be a problem at both central and local government level at the moment - these are an important part of the system of checks and balances that make democracy workable)...

[rch]

Yes, legalalien... non-compliance with government processes is basically what I am referring to as ?political machinations? in the past.

The huge amount of public money that?s been decimated without solving the basic problems is outrageous!

This is why I?m so glad to see so many of you sticking together...

[Metallic]

A green bus. A great idea Robin. However, as we all know, any ideas that could meet objections and diffuse the hate stuff, would be laughed off twitter. I'm more than disgusted by the virtue signalling and point scoring and I don't think there will be any compromise. Whilst the London Cycling Campaign holds such sway with our councillors, Cabinet and Council, there will not be a change.

So we have to wait until May 2022.

[first mate]

Robin,

I too think the Green bus is a great idea and is just the sort of lateral thinking that no reps of the sitting or mainstream parties are exhibiting...too caught up in ideology and ?big? ideas. What we desperately need are smaller, practical ideas, like yours. Really, perhaps you should consider running again.

[Rockets]

You can see why the emergency services love things that block roads....imagine that police car is responding to your emergency call....blocking roads seems more and more foolish every day.....

[rch]

I?ll get around to discussing Barrier alternatives eventually, Rockets. Am in regular contact with the police, but they can?t speak out openly. One step at a time.

Metallic, I flagged the Green Bus idea again because I?m curious to see what will happen with the RV1 issue in the north of the borough. The council always seems to find internal funding for the north of borough, but only wants to use free government funds for the south. Maybe we can set up a crowdfunding project and start our own local bus service?.

Good try, first mate. Everybody stops me in the street and encourages me to stand again. But I genuinely hate the politics. I?d rather work within the community to make our area a genuinely better place.

Maybe we can reconsider devolving into the People?s Republic of Dulwich again?? ;-)

[legalalien]

May 2022 sounds good but how does it work practically? As I understand it, council committee positions are based on a sort of proportional representation rule (quoting assembly meeting earlier in the year):

?Note: The political balance rules require that the political groups represented on council have proportionate representation on council committees. A political group must comprise at least two members, so the one Independent member does not constitute a political group. Councils can allocate seats on committees to members not aligned to a group, but are under no statutory obligation to do so.?

Given the local Labour councillors seem intransigent about any criticism or proposed modification to the current scheme, and that the listed Lib Dem rep (http://www.southwark-libdems.org.uk/dulwich_village_candidates) campaigned to close the DV/CL junction, where does that leave us in terms of an election as a practical

solution? Independents only get even slight power if they join a group of two or more candidates; would local Lib Dems in practice be... liberal and democratic? So far I?m kind of getting the impression that they do care about the process issues at least - hence the questions proposed for this week?s assembly meeting, and Cllr Nick Johnson?s blog on Southwark News. I guess we wait and see? (For completeness can?t see voting in conservative reps will be a thing, and even if so, their voices would be less heard / respected by a majority Labour (or Lib Dem) council)?

Sorry to bring politics into it, but if the local govt election is supposed

to change things, that?s inevitable?

[rch]

Bear in mind that the Lib Dem candidate listed in your link above owns a house directly behind the closed DV junction, which overlooks her front garden.

I served as both a Tory and a Lib Dem councillor, crossing over out of frustration, but had serious issues with both manifestoes. However, I find the Lib Dems in the north of the borough to be more in tune with residents? views than those in the south. Hence, I also found Nick Johnson?s article intriguing.

In my opinion, a split party government is the best way forward, as one party with a serious majority tends to railroad decisions through.

Another option is to form an entirely separate new political party...

[legalalien]

Funnily enough I?m coming to the view that proportional representation in local govt is perhaps the way forward. But that?s digressing from this thread.

[malumbu]

rch Wrote:

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What's a digital green bus RCH? Is this a service on demand like the ones offered to vulnerable people in the community? Has this featured in recent government announcements on plans to modernise bus services and increase passenger numbers? I expect you have political connections - have you raised this with them, government direct or through your MP? This should be all fertile ground https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/a-better-deal-for-bus-users/a-better-deal-for-bus-users although much of this appears to be on investing in electric buses rather than different ways of doing things. I'm sure that different ways of doing things will feature when the new bus strategy is consulted on. Outside of the capital, and a few other more enlighted areas eg Oxford, Brighton, Nottingham, Reading and the like, buses are seen by most as poor peoples' transport, quite a barrier to get over.

>

> I still think that a Green Bus connecting DV and ED would be one of the most pro-active solution

(in addition to cycling) to getting residents out of their cars for local journeys, but I suspect

Covid will put this on hold. Yet, this option should definitely be flagged to councillors and

cabinet members.

Great to hear more about this. Also great if people can refrain from political comments, including swipes at the Cycling Campaigns. I'm bored of this but interested in better ways forward.

[northernmonkey]

Also interested in the green bus initiative - how would it work?

Would the plan be that there was a single vehicle looping between east dulwich and dulwich village- eg circular route or more than one vehicle. One issue that is often discussed is multiple school drops - eg jags and the prep, so was this envisaged to address this or more of a general shopper route?

Would also be interested in hearing more about the digital element. Alternative public transport options are interesting, do you have indicative costs that you know could be funded?

[first mate]

Finally, this feels like something we can all agree on.

Robin, have you raised the green bus idea with James McAsh or any other local councillors recently?

[legalalien]

Fair enough re the political stuff, I?ll take my process issues elsewhere. The green bus / local bus circuit sounds like a good idea to me. Half moon Lane mentioned? Would it go towards Herne hill as well? I can see it serving different demographics at different times of day.

[Rockets]

rch Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Bear in mind that the Lib Dem candidate listed in

> your link above owns a house directly behind the

> closed DV junction, which overlooks her front

> garden.

>

> I served as both a Tory and a Lib Dem councillor,

> crossing over out of frustration, but had serious

> issues with both manifestoes. However, I find the

> Lib Dems in the north of the borough to be more in

> tune with residents? views than those in the

> south. Hence, I also found Nick Johnson?s article

> intriguing.

>

> In my opinion, a split party government is the

> best way forward, as one party with a serious

> majority tends to railroad decisions through.

>

> Another option is to form an entirely separate new

> political party...

I completely agree - these decisions by our council are indicative of one that has no opposition. It was interesting during the recent Cabinet meeting that the two Lib Dem councillors from the north of the borough were saying that Sadiq Khan had done little for the residents in Southwark and listed a number of initiatives that had been cancelled by the mayor. Cllr Williams interjected and said they should not be political point-scoring and then he went into a passionate political point-scoring defence of Sadiq and all the good he had done...much nodding in agreement from the Labour councillors while the Lib Dems smiled.....

Why did the council kill the green bus initiative...it sounds like an idea that this area is crying out for?

RCH how should we be fighting these closures - the council seems to be doing everything in their power to silence any sort of debate about them?

Southwark definitely needs some sort of opposition to ensure transparency.

[malumbu]

Do cut the politics please. Green buses is a bit of a generic term and I'd be interested to find out more. I can discuss politics elsewhere.

[Rockets]

But Malumbu - not sure how you can discuss this without talking about politics. The decisions impacting Dulwich at the moment are political, being made by representatives of a political party that has zero opposition. Saying that the area needs political opposition isn?t a bad thing is it? Not sure how you suggest people divorce politics from this. Just because you don?t want to discuss the political element of this doesn?t mean other people don?t.

Thus far you have told people not to talk about politics, or the influence of cycle lobby groups groups on local decision-making.....anything else you deem inappropriate for this forum.....?

[rch]

The best way to fight these closures is for everyone to object to the Traffic Order en masse:-

https://www.southwark.gov.uk/assets/attach/12765/LSP-Dulwich-Trials-notice-dated-18-June-2020-.pdf

The more written objections that the council receives, the harder it will be for them to legally override the majority.

In tandem, we should be suggesting positive alternatives that can achieve the overall objectives in a way that will benefit the community, which is the discussion that I?m trying to initiate. I realised that there was nothing we could do to stop the road closures that had been proposed and rejected in the past, so I?ve carefully watched as the situation in both Melbourne and Dulwich Village unfolded. As I walk everywhere and actually live on a closed road, I can see things from a completely different perspective based on my past highway geek experience.

I actually agree that car use can decrease and that cycling is a beneficial option (in addition to improved public transportation)... and I love the concept of the ?15 Minute Village?, but I?ve spent almost 15 years trying to get elected representatives to understand the unique dynamics of the Dulwich area (both DV and ED).

I?ve even tried talking to cycling groups and other resident groups, but they are also fixed in their opinions (which we can address separately).

As I?m gagged at public meetings and consultations, I?m going to continue to post here.

Just be aware that I?m in the middle of a completely difficult situation with severe damage caused by Thames Water to my house, which takes up a huge amount of time to fight.

Will post more about the Green Bus concept when I have more time to type...

[Glemham]

At last in this thread the spark of an intelligent solution. Better public transport - whatever form it takes - both within, and connecting this area to a world beyond, Dulwich. Thanks rch for the prompt.

For example; many people travel to and from Beckenham and Bromley for work, schools and shopping. Relatively easy by car but it takes two bus journeys from East Dulwich to Beckenham and beyond. How possible would it be to persuade TfL to make a new route, perhaps with some of the buses being ?express? ones, to encourage less car use?

There are undoubtedly other areas which would benefit from this kind of rethink about use of local public transport. Crowdfunding could help in getting some thinking outside of this particular box. If only a few short years ago Southwark had accepted an alternative, crowd-funded plan for the Dulwich Village Junction ................