LTN: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3

[DulvilleRes]

Something that the road protests have thrown up as a by product is the revelation that there is appears to be a comparative surge in traffic because of covid.

Some commentators have noted that there are more people in their cars than usual because of the reluctance with many to use buses or trains to avoid exposure to the virus. I certainly know from my work the official Health and Safety advice we get in some specific instances is to avoid public transport where possible, and to ideally drive alone in cars, and I know that this kind of risk assessment is commonplace elsewhere.

The question is what bearing does this have on the volume of traffic on the roads around the LTN's? It feels to me that in order to get an accurate picture on traffic increases/ reduction, the Council are going to have to wait until the pandemic has abated somewhat.

[Rockets]

first mate Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I thought Rockets qualified his statement by

> saying not a single petrol or diesel car

> "launched".

>

> Is it the case petrol and diesel cars were

> launched? You've just referred to cars "at" the

> show...not the same thing.

>

> Anyhow, I guess the point is it may be more

> accurate to say the majority of cars were

> electric. I don't know, I wasn't there and do not

> follow car events, but to incorrectly quote

> Rockets and then on that basis accuse him of

> talking cobblers is a bit much.

DKHB is so keen to throw in an aggressive "gotcha" that they failed to actually read what was written in either my post or the article they link to.

I love the fact that the article they link to talks about all the electric cars that VW, BMW and Mercedes launched at the show - and all the concept cars being electric. Not a single mention of any launches of anything other than electric, in fact I am struggling to find any references to a single petrol or diesel car in the article - thereby highlighting my point even more strongly. The article does talk about hybrids (in relation to there being a worrying lack of infrastructure to accelerate the total transition to electric as quickly as people would like and that manufacturers are putting pressure on govts to improve electric infrastrucutre) but that's about it for anything beyond electric.

In fact the article says:

In many ways, it feels like the sheen of ?newness? around the concept of electric cars as a whole has well and truly worn off; now they?re the unquestioned stars of events such as this and there?s a whole raft of other novel concepts and ideas to get used to.

The car industry has gone electric - that is most definitely not "cobblers".

[redpost]

Rockets Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> first mate Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I thought Rockets qualified his statement by

> > saying not a single petrol or diesel car

> > "launched".

> >

> > Is it the case petrol and diesel cars were

> > launched? You've just referred to cars "at" the

> > show...not the same thing.

> >

> > Anyhow, I guess the point is it may be more

> > accurate to say the majority of cars were

> > electric. I don't know, I wasn't there and do

> not

> > follow car events, but to incorrectly quote

> > Rockets and then on that basis accuse him of

> > talking cobblers is a bit much.

>

>

> DKHB is so keen to throw in an aggressive "gotcha"

> that they failed to actually read what was written

> in either my post or the article they link to.

>

> I love the fact that the article they link to

> talks about all the electric cars that VW, BMW and

> Mercedes launched at the show - and all the

> concept cars being electric. Not a single mention

> of any launches of anything other than electric,

> in fact I am struggling to find any references to

> a single petrol or diesel car in the article -

> thereby highlighting my point even more strongly.

> The article does talk about hybrids (in relation

> to there being a worrying lack of infrastructure

> to accelerate the total transition to electric as

> quickly as people would like and that

> manufacturers are putting pressure on govts to

> improve electric infrastrucutre) but that's about

> it for anything beyond electric.

>

> In fact the article says:

>

> In many ways, it feels like the sheen of ?newness?

> around the concept of electric cars as a whole has

> well and truly worn off; now they?re the

> unquestioned stars of events such as this and

> there?s a whole raft of other novel concepts and

> ideas to get used to.

>

> The car industry has gone electric - that is most

> definitely not "cobblers".

Fits the usual pattern:

Rockets quotes article that doesn't mention ICE cars and only electric cars, therefore infers all cars launched at show are electric and states this as de facto in forum.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

first mate Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I thought Rockets qualified his statement by

> saying not a single petrol or diesel car

> "launched".

>

> Is it the case petrol and diesel cars were

> launched? You've just referred to cars "at" the

> show...not the same thing.

>

> Anyhow, I guess the point is it may be more

> accurate to say the majority of cars were

> electric. I don't know, I wasn't there and do not

> follow car events, but to incorrectly quote

> Rockets and then on that basis accuse him of

> talking cobblers is a bit much.

The Dacia Jogger (discussed in the link and launched at the show) is a fossil fuel car. Dacia has only one electric vehicle (that's not even on sale in the UK), and all the rest of its range is petrol, diesel and LNG . The company has "hopes" for a hybrid in the future - but in the meantime like everyone else they're still making and selling plenty of fossil fuel vehicles and blocking legislation that would force them to act quicker. In any case, electric cars are no panacea.

> The car industry has gone electric

This greenwash and bullshit is exactly what Greenpeace and thousands of people were objecting to at the car show - a point that has evidently gone over some people's heads. https://www.greenpeace.org/international/story/24136/these-12-car-companies-are-setting-the-world-on-fire/

I wasn't suggesting Rockets was talking cobblers. The totally real and definitely not invented "someone" who said there were no petrol or diesel cars launched was talking cobblers.

[Rockets]

So there was one fossil fuel car launched at the show.....my hasn't Dacia's launch massively slowed the rate of progress to the electrification of cars?

I wholeheartedly apologise for daring to suggest that all the launches were electric.

So let me rephrase what I said....all, bar one car launched by Dacia, were electric and the world's leading car brands that account for the large majority of sales went fully electric with their launches. Happy now - I suspect not! ;-)

Redpost - before piling on I would suggest you pay more attention to the thread...DKHB linked to the article - I just quoted something from that article that DKHB used as proof that not all cars launched were electric.

[Rockets]

DKHB - why are electric cars not the panacea? Surely they massively reduce pollution which is the key issue we are trying to address, is it not?

[DulwichCentral]

See above (and now again below) @Rockets - I posted this earlier maybe you missed it?

To keep reiterating the key issue is pollution when you're fully aware that road safety, congestion, CO2 emmissions, climate change, social equity etc are all part of the discussion here in relation to transport seems to be what others here would call 'sealioning'.

If all new cars sold were electric, it would still take 15-20 years to replace the world?s fossil fuel car fleet.

[www.research.ox.ac.uk]

and...

'Let's be conservative and say that on average a charger will suck 5kW of power, which would still take hours to recharge an average car. Scale that up to 35 million cars and we will need additional 18GW of power to supply them all.

A brand spanking new nuclear power station that is being built is Hinkley at a price of $26,5 billion will produce only 3.2GW once it's opened in 2025. The UK alone would need seven Hinkley nuclear power stations to meet their EV power demand.

[drivetribe.com]

and...

'Electric car push puts front gardens in peril, Sacrificing grass and flowers to build chargepoints is ?paving the way to disaster? The Times

And others have pointed out road deaths and obesity would still be a problem. As would congestion.

All good reasons that electric cars are not the panacea don't you think?

[heartblock]

LTNs and electric cars are not the panacea, but at least electric cars reduce NOx levels (unfortunately particulates are a little more problematic) whereas LTNs funnel cars, HGVs, SUVs and vans onto high density residential roads with schools and health centres. So electric cars may be less a case of green-washing than LTNs.

Non-violent protest and direct action to oppose polluting companies and policy.

I do find that it is the eye of the beholder - so NV direct action against LTNs or a protest against LTNs is seen by some as vandalism and idiotic, by others a protest against polluting policy. Extinction rebellion and/or the M25/Dover protesters - Global Climate Strike action - in my view - Good for them - so some people are a bit delayed or put out - but there really is a climate emergency.

[hpsaucey]

Rockets Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> DKHB - why are electric cars not the panacea?

> Surely they massively reduce pollution which is

> the key issue we are trying to address, is it not?

They displace that pollution. It might not be local anymore but plenty produced by the mineral extraction - lithium etc. - necessary for battery production for all these electric vehicles.And of course depends how rhe electricity is generated.

HP

[Spartacus]

DC I see you've gone down the "nuclear power station doom" route

We're developing better wind, solar and tidal power options so whilst one or two power stations would possibly be needed, we will have other sources.

The front garden issue really isn't, chargers will be everywhere so the need to have a drive or garden isn't going to be a great driver and with the newer generation of fast charges, cars can be topped up quickly then moved on so someone else can use it.

Just because you're able to cycle don't expect everyone to give up their car and toe the council line.

Cycling, walking, pubici transporter and motorised vehicles should all be considered part of the solution and not just one size suits all as you seem to be preaching.

Not everyone, as I've pointed out to you before, can give up their car and some really need it (or are you still pushing electric mobility scooters for all 😱)

[DulwichCentral]

'electric cars may be less a case of green-washing than LTNs' really? Despite the reasons for them not being a panacea above, which you seem to agree with.

Some argue that it's better to spread the pollution around equitably than to block roads to motor vehicles to enable active travel and behaviour change.

Would they also argue against flood barriers - and prefer to push the flood around so it hits more houses more equitably?

People can either get on board with drastic measures to reduce car usage - and push for more which takes time - or not.

[DulwichCentral]

Spartacus Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> DC I see you've gone down the "nuclear power

> station doom" route

>

> We're developing better wind, solar and tidal

> power options so whilst one or two power stations

> would possibly be needed, we will have other

> sources.

>

> The front garden issue really isn't, chargers will

> be everywhere so the need to have a drive or

> garden isn't going to be a great driver and with

> the newer generation of fast charges, cars can be

> topped up quickly then moved on so someone else

> can use it.

>

> Just because you're able to cycle don't expect

> everyone to give up their car and toe the council

> line.

>

> Cycling, walking, pubici transporter and motorised

> vehicles should all be considered part of the

> solution and not just one size suits all as you

> seem to be preaching.

>

> Not everyone, as I've pointed out to you before,

> can give up their car and some really need it (or

> are you still pushing electric mobility scooters

> for all 😱)

Where did I say everyone can give up their car??????

[heartblock]

Public transport - yes exactly. This is what we should all be campaigning for - LTNs are a diversion.

The Insulate protesters are quite right - The UK?s housing stock remains some of the worst in Europe with almost 10,000 people a year thought to die from fuel poverty. Millions more struggle with poor physical and mental health caused by cold and damp living conditions and emissions from buildings still account for 17% of the country?s greenhouse gas emissions.

[Rockets]

Ok DC, now put pragmatsim over idealism.

Firstly congestion, CO2 emissions, climate change and social equity are all wrapped up in my definition/effect of pollution - so I am not separating those out. They are all about limiting the impact of emissions from cars and are all intertwined.

A line of congested electric vehicles is doing far less damage to the environment than a line of petrol and diesel vehicles - would you not agree?

Likewise, surely an electric car has far fewer CO2 emissions than a petrol or diesel vehicle?

And one would presume that electric vehicles would do far less overall damage in terms of climate change?

Social equity - it depends whether you mean living with the impacts of cars or accessibility. If it is living with the impacts then given lower emissions the impact would be lower, especially along roads where population density is highest. At this point there isn't a huge amount in terms of accessibility but new business models are being developed (like Car Clubs) where more people can get access to cars without having to own one.

Road saftey - yes, that is always going to be an issue but according to the European Road Safety Observatory we have one of the most densely populated countries in the world but have one of the world's best safety records. And there are new technologies like ADAS and CV2-X that will make the roads even safer for everyone who uses them as your car will always know where it is in relation to people, bikes, cars and other things on or at the side of a road and will be able to anticipate potential incidents and take evasive action before the driver does. These technologies are easier to implement in electric vehicles.

The car is one of the most popular forms of transportation for a reason and just saying we have to stop using them is not the answer. They are always be going to be cars and whilst you take a position of the car is bad you don't ever actually deal with the issues created by cars.

A lot of people are saying bikes are the solution - but clearly that isn't going to cut it and during the last 18 months, since the pandemic began, bikes saw a huge increase and then equally huge decrease in usage. It seems people are voting with their feet and whilst bikes were good for pottering to the park with the kids during lockdown they aren't the solution in a big city when life starts returning to normal. Even pre-lockdown this trend is prevalent in places like the Netherlands - whilst the Dutch love their bikes they love their cars in equal measure and own more cars per capita than us in the UK - I suspect they own more bikes per capita too.

So, putting my pragmatic hat on electric vehicles seem to be a major part of the solution for the most pressing need which is climate change - yet many on the other side of the fence disagree but I can't find a rational explanation why except people living by the mantra of two wheels good/four wheels bad.

Perhaps can you enlighten me as to why you are so averse to electric vehcile?

[DulwichCentral]

Humans have evolved into getting from A to B in a two tonne metal box with two sofas in it - often just by themselves - sat there looking p****d off because they're stuck - surrounded by thousands of other people doing the same thing.

Many could walk, cycle or use public transport instead.

I'm going out now. Have a nice evening :)

[Rockets]

DC - but surely if that electric metal box isn't polluting as much as the old petrol/diesel metal box then that is a good thing is it not?

No-one wants to sit in traffic so there is a reason they do and a million more reasons why they can't, don't or won't walk, cycle or get public transport.

What you seem to be saying is the metal box is the issue not what the metal box emits in terms of pollution?

Have a great evening - isn't it nice to be able to go out again?

[geh]

had to go to Cumbria the other week, (actually in the end it was cancelled), 2 of us. Train tickets ?225 each! Each! then cab when we got there (each way as it was a rural venue) Cost to drive (Hybrid, will change to EV next year) prob c. ?50.

What exactly should I do/have done given the cost differential? Believe me I have no desire to spend 6 hrs each way in a car (and much of that is getting out of SE22!).

Nothing will really change unless there is an effective centrally subsidised public transport system. The conservative "for profit" approach is singularly inappropriate in many cases (as those whose energy providers are currently falling over are discovering).

[Abe_froeman]

Duliwch central, if you got a better job that helped you afford your own 2T metal box with en suite leather sofas I think you would appreciate all of the good things in life as well as in electric cars.

[heartblock]

geh - yes this completely. Last time I wanted to visit friends in Devon ?500 for travel for us both, cheaper by car. A huge investment is needed and not in LTNs.

[ab29]

One of the worst things now is that weekends are hardly better in terms of traffic than weekdays (except half term and holidays); 8am this morning and already a solid traffic on Dulwich Common.

[DulwichCentral]

Abe_froeman Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Duliwch central, if you got a better job that

> helped you afford your own 2T metal box with en

> suite leather sofas I think you would appreciate

> all of the good things in life as well as in

> electric cars.

Ah yes - thanks for reminding me @Abe_froeman - I forgot to add:

Now it is fashionable for humans to buy the biggest metal box they can afford - even if they have crippled themselves financially to do so - because it makes them feel powerful when sitting in long queues of other metal boxes knowing that they have superior 'en suite leather sofas' to sit on. Weirdly in some cases these humans have evolved to feel a false sense of being more attractive to the opposite sex whilst sat in their metal box.

https://nypost.com/2020/02/21/men-who-buy-luxury-cars-are-probably-big-jerks-study-finds/

[ab29]

I also walked to a post office near Forest Hill station this morning and the South Circular was absolutely packed with hardly moving traffic. Unless there was an an incident somewhere, this is there worst I've seen; and this apparently is to get worst after ULEZ.

Also, only one person in most of the cars - I wish there was a regulation that unless you have at least 2-3 people in your car, you cannot drive (with some exceptions).

[DulwichCentral]

Ah but as long as they're sitting on 'en suite leather sofas' in their metal boxes then according to Abe_Froeman they are having a whale of a time!

Abe_froeman Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Duliwch central, if you got a better job that

> helped you afford your own 2T metal box with en

> suite leather sofas I think you would appreciate

> all of the good things in life as well as in

> electric cars.

[heartblock]

Most of those huge metal boxes with leather sofas can be seen parked on Calton, Court and Melbourne, I walk down those roads often and always amazed at the huge Range Rovers, BMWs etc. In the case of Calton, usually another car parked on the drive and in the case of Gilkes a car on the drive, one on the road, one in the garage and one parked at the second home in .... Southwold, The Lakes, Norfolk......

There is no proof that these LTNs cause a change in behaviour and a modal-shift in transport choices (traffic is up again and cycling down again), whereas the availability of excellent public transport at an affordable price does change behaviour.

Funnelling traffic just causes misery, more pollution for those who are more likely to walk and take public transport, due to the demographic make up of high density residential roads in London.

[malumbu]

DC - that's capitalism for you, we are being sold a dream/lifestyle (and that covers much of what we buy). But there again would be like to live in North Korea (I'm being only slightly facetious).

Rocks, you talk about cycling yourself but then seem to have joy over what you see as cycling failing to increase, in your defence you are not as bad as some other posters on this thread. Shame that there is this antipathy irrespective of our views on LTNs

EVs, fascinating lounge type conversations. I've driven many on test tracks, and even a hydrogen fuel cell. But I expect I wont own one, but use car clubs when needed in future. Filling the roads up with them rather than ICEs is not the answer, rather a least worst option. Reducing the need and using more effectively including occupancy. How on earth you increase occupancy without a single party state (back to North Korea again) I don't know.

Protests - there is lots of talk about improved public transport but the 2000 fuel protests have caused so much harm. We had a government before that who were genuinely pro public transport and reducing private car use. Since then successive governments have been too afraid to take on the motorist lobby apart from the current half assesed attempt that they have dumped onto local authorities.

Cost of public transport - full life costs are about 45p a mile, a return journey to Cumbria would therefore be around ?260 in costs to drive. So a single person in simple transport costs would be about the same price. Take into account reduced stress and the possibility for some economic activity when you are on the train - say 3 hours at ?50 it becomes even more attractive to use the train. But the full single fares are too much, and pre-Covid franchise owners were essentially printing money hence Branson going full on to overturn the loss of the West Coast franchise in 2012. Privatisation did bring in the benefits of cheap travel with advanced purchases but we don't always have the luxury of that. I used to check out alternatives eg train to Lancaster or Penrith and hire a car from there, or worse still doing it in a day, early flight to Newcastle with Easyjet (aghhhh emissions) and again hire car. But another lounge discussion.

Finally I've spoken before about the end of private car ownership, as we transition to connected and autonomous vehicles, and, especially in the capital, an autonomous pod will be summoned to our residence, probably sharing with others, to a transport node, when we will get on our electric bus, or electric scooter, or hover board, or whatever, to go onto our destination. All at speed and without hassle.