LTN: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3

[Earl Aelfheah]

.. What it shows is that traffic is down and active travel is up. Which is exactly what LTNs set out to achieve.

The clean air for no one campaign, would put traffic back on to every street and discourage active travel.

We need to work to improve traffic on the two streets where there is still a problem (Burbage and EDG). But not to lose the gains we have made.

[Rockets]

Rahx3 do you really believe that traffic on Lordship Lane has decreased by 22%?

[rjsmall]

Does the report include which roads are defined as External Roads and which are Internal Roads and whether the "specific" roads were defined before the data was gathered or afterwards

It is a shame that they didn't have any counters for Lordship Lane near the Grove Tavern and also the South Circular along Dulwich Common as they are roads that would be expected to pick up displaced traffic.

Is there a link for the full report?

[Earl Aelfheah]

rjsmall Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Is there a link for the full report?

At the bottom of this page:

https://www.southwark.gov.uk/transport-and-roads/improving-our-streets/live-projects/dulwich-review

[rjsmall]

rahrahrah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> rjsmall Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Is there a link for the full report?

>

> At the bottom of this page:

> https://www.southwark.gov.uk/transport-and-roads/i

> mproving-our-streets/live-projects/dulwich-review

Thanks.

[Rockets]

rjsmall Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Does the report include which roads are defined as

> External Roads and which are Internal Roads and

> whether the "specific" roads were defined before

> the data was gathered or afterwards

>

> It is a shame that they didn't have any counters

> for Lordship Lane near the Grove Tavern and also

> the South Circular along Dulwich Common as they

> are roads that would be expected to pick up

> displaced traffic.

>

> Is there a link for the full report?

RJsmall - there was a counter on Lordship Lane near the Grove Tavern and the council say it recorded a 22% decrease in traffic.....no I don't believe it either.

The counter is near Melford Road so would be in the stationery traffic zone and there is some debate that the strips can't monitor traffic that is crawling and council's know this and out strips close to congestion when they want to record low numbers. There was originally a set of strips near the Court Lane but they were moved ahead of the review to closer to Grove Tavern.....read into that what you will.

Interestingly there is also a set of strips close to Townley on Lordship Lane and no data from that one has been shared.

[Mrs D]

I registered for this but never received a link to the meeting. I presume this is on now?

AylwardS Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The Dulwich Review consultation has been extended

> until 18 July and a further online meeting added.

> See below for update from Southwark Highways.

>

> Dear all,

>

> Thank you for your continued engagement with our

> Review of the road schemes in Dulwich Village,

> East Dulwich and Champion Hill.

>

> Thousands of residents have already completed the

> consultation which can be found at

> www.southwark.gov.uk/dulwichstreetspacereview. We

> want to allow some extra time for those who have

> not yet completed it, so we are extending the

> deadline to Sunday 18th July.

>

> We have also published a report on the monitoring

> data that we have obtained over the past couple of

> months. You can view this at

> www.southwark.gov.uk/dulwichstreetspacereview . We

> are going to hold an extra community meeting to

> discuss the data and what it tells us about the

> road schemes, on Tuesday 13th July 6pm.

>

> This will be an online meeting ? to register for

> the meeting please go to

> https://dulwichreviewdata.eventbrite.co.uk

>

> Kind regards,

>

> Southwark Highways

[alice]

Oh i missed that. is there anyone who can give some feedback please?

[legalalien]

I just went to it. I asked a question in the chat and put my hand up to ask as well and was roundly ignored - and the questions were pretty innocuous too, I thought.

(In case they weren't innocuous, I asked (i) whether we could have a split out of weekday and weekend data on roads affected by the timed closures, to better understand the impact of the timed closures; and (ii) whether using April as the comparison month, which is a school holiday month, might mask any potential redirection of school traffic and also cycle to school traffic.)

Mostly the feedback to the council was quite negative - one or two supporters including a fairly staged cameo by Tom of Denmark Hill (whoever that be) who Cllr Simmonds invited to speak right at the end. The interjections of "we don't trust you" summed it up quite well (my opinion obviously).

[northernmonkey]

On the April point they did seem to indicate that there would be more data for May and June coming soon so that will be helpful to understand what is a trend vs anomaly.

I'd also agree that more granularity of data would be helpful - I'd like to see the directional traffic counts rather than in total and would agree that weekday vs weekend would also be helpful.

The questions were supposed to be split by area though - East Dulwich, then the village and then champion hill so the fact that Tom of Denmark Hill spoke at the end was because he was one of the questionners from that area. The assumption that only negative views can be genuine does reflect your views rather than people being an obvious plant.

[Rockets]

northernmonkey Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> On the April point they did seem to indicate that

> there would be more data for May and June coming

> soon so that will be helpful to understand what is

> a trend vs anomaly.

>

> I'd also agree that more granularity of data would

> be helpful - I'd like to see the directional

> traffic counts rather than in total and would

> agree that weekday vs weekend would also be

> helpful.

>

> The questions were supposed to be split by area

> though - East Dulwich, then the village and then

> champion hill so the fact that Tom of Denmark Hill

> spoke at the end was because he was one of the

> questionners from that area. The assumption that

> only negative views can be genuine does reflect

> your views rather than people being an obvious

> plant.

I think we also need to see the data from all the strips that were placed in other parts of certain roads before the review data period. What happened to all the info gathered in Oct/Nov 2020?

[legalalien]

I?ll acknowledge the point about Tom, although I still think it felt quite scripted.

Do you think that when the June data comes, they?ll then compare it with an ?adjusted? June 2019 baseline then - or just give the new data? It should be the former? Hopefully they?ll also give some more info about on what basis they?ve done the ?adjustment?.

northernmonkey Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> On the April point they did seem to indicate that

> there would be more data for May and June coming

> soon so that will be helpful to understand what is

> a trend vs anomaly.

>

> I'd also agree that more granularity of data would

> be helpful - I'd like to see the directional

> traffic counts rather than in total and would

> agree that weekday vs weekend would also be

> helpful.

>

> The questions were supposed to be split by area

> though - East Dulwich, then the village and then

> champion hill so the fact that Tom of Denmark Hill

> spoke at the end was because he was one of the

> questionners from that area. The assumption that

> only negative views can be genuine does reflect

> your views rather than people being an obvious

> plant.

[Rockets]

And is there anyone on the pro-LTN side who thinks traffic is down 22% on Lordship Lane as the council claims? If so, why is it that the councils same data shows bus journey times increasing....it makes no sense at all....

[northernmonkey]

I don't know on the data baseline comparison - don't think they went into that level of detail but will be something to look at in what is released and understand the impact. If anything leaving the April baseline unadjusted could overstate the impact of any increases in traffic I'd have thought for May ?

In terms of more general questions on do we believe the data - I'd prefer to see more months monitoring before reaching conclusions - though working up a hypothesis and then determining whether subsequent data sets reflect this is a reasonable basis for assessment.

legalalien Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I?ll acknowledge the point about Tom, although I

> still think it felt quite scripted.

>

> Do you think that when the June data comes,

> they?ll then compare it with an ?adjusted? June

> 2019 baseline then - or just give the new data? It

> should be the former? Hopefully they?ll also give

> some more info about on what basis they?ve done

> the ?adjustment?.

>

>

> northernmonkey Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > On the April point they did seem to indicate

> that

> > there would be more data for May and June

> coming

> > soon so that will be helpful to understand what

> is

> > a trend vs anomaly.

> >

> > I'd also agree that more granularity of data

> would

> > be helpful - I'd like to see the directional

> > traffic counts rather than in total and would

> > agree that weekday vs weekend would also be

> > helpful.

> >

> > The questions were supposed to be split by area

> > though - East Dulwich, then the village and

> then

> > champion hill so the fact that Tom of Denmark

> Hill

> > spoke at the end was because he was one of the

> > questionners from that area. The assumption

> that

> > only negative views can be genuine does reflect

> > your views rather than people being an obvious

> > plant.

[Rockets]

Northern - do you agree then that it was wrong of the council to release interim data, extend the deadline for the review and then go knocking door to door with said interim data to try influence people's input?

[northernmonkey]

Nothing like trying to put words in people's mouths there Rockets....

[Rockets]

Ha ha...it's a question....sometimes answering simple questions seems to be the hardest thing for the pro-lobby! ;-)

[roywj]

Anyone else notice how clearer the local roads are this week? Private schools are off and traffic along east dulwich Grove has plummeted.

Local residents are being penalised for traffic out of our control.

[LTN BooHoo]

Rockets Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> LTN BooHoo Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Rockets Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > They are out again today...there is a group

> > > congregating outside Saucy with Charlie now.

> > It's

> > > almost as if they are concerned about

> > > something.....

> >

> > Global warming? Our climate emergency?

> Inactivity?

> > Obesity? Pollution? Our children?s future? The

> > fact that we have built our lives around the

> motor

> > vehicle and if we have any decency we will

> > acknowledge that we must seek alternatives?

> >

> > I know, none of the above. Let?s just carry on

> as

> > we were. Have a nice day.

>

> I am pretty sure that is not their

> concern....these are politicians trying to

> manipulate the result of the review. It's so

> brazen it just shows how out of control they are.

Have you read the New Southwark Plan? There is a clear adopted policy mandate to reduce carbon emissions. We can?t achieve this by carrying on as we are. It?s an inconvenient truth that we all have to contribute. The review is ongoing and we won?t understand the cost/benefits of the interventions for at least a year maybe more. Councillors are entitled to knock on doors and I suggest this will have only a minimal impact on the outcome of the review.

I read on Twitter ? we are going to vote you out?. What impact will this have? If conservative/independent councillors are elected will they have a stronger voice when addressing a labour council? Not likely

Southwark has been a progressive forward thinking borough for years now. Do you really think they are going to back down and respond like conservative councils eg K&C or Westminster? We have a climate emergency we ALL need to wake up.

[Rockets]

LTN BooHoo - yes we agree but this route Southwark have taken is not at all equitable....whilst some benefit the majority don't.

The council may be able to bus in votes from LTN lobby groups outside of Dulwich to try to influence the review result but they can't do that in the councillor elections in May and they may be in for a torrid time at the polls - there are lot of local residents who are disgusted by the approach the council and councillors have taken.

All there needs to be are a couple of independent candidates or a sensible Lib Dem candidate and you can see a shift taking place and the Red Wall of Southwark starts seeing a few different coloured bricks. To be honest Southwark needs some opposition as there is very little accountability right now and it's why people like Leo Pollack get away with what they were doing for so long and it's why the council is able to treat residents with contempt as they have done during the whole of the LTN debacle.

[LTN BooHoo]

Rockets Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> LTN BooHoo - yes we agree but this route Southwark

> have taken is not at all equitable....whilst some

> benefit the majority don't.

>

> The council may be able to bus in votes from LTN

> lobby groups outside of Dulwich to try to

> influence the review result but they can't do that

> in the councillor elections in May and they may be

> in for a torrid time at the polls - there are lot

> of local residents who are disgusted by the

> approach the council and councillors have taken.

>

> All there needs to be are a couple of independent

> candidates or a sensible Lib Dem candidate and you

> can see a shift taking place and the Red Wall of

> Southwark starts seeing a few different coloured

> bricks. To be honest Southwark needs some

> opposition as there is very little accountability

> right now and it's why people like Leo Pollack get

> away with what they were doing for so long and

> it's why the council is able to treat residents

> with contempt as they have done during the whole

> of the LTN debacle.

I disagree. In the last election, candidates like Fox, who ran on a platform that would see the filters in their areas removed, lost their deposits.

Whereas, Councillors in Waltham Forest were all re-elected after receiving deaths threats by anti LTN advocates when their filters were introduced some years ago. This is a cross party federal, regional and local initiative. The Dulwich filters were all consulted on prior to installation and those which were introduced under the emergency traffic order procedures are perfectly legal.

What is your solution to meet our climate emergency? Ask people to give up their SUVs/short journeys nicely?

[redpost]

Exactly, in the mayoral elections last year, Sean Bailey campaigned on having the LTNs removed, the result? a measly 1% swing from labour to tory

Most people see the need for LTNs and support them

[legalalien]

Do you think people voted in the mayoral election on the LTN issue given the mayor has practically no power or influence over LTNs? I certainly didn?t, and any candidate campaigning in that issue was really misleading people a bit. True of candidates across the spectrum.

A lot of the anti-Labour sentiment locally is not so much anti-LTN sentiment as anti-the-way these councillors and this council are behaving. It extends to lots of people unhappy with similar behaviour in other contexts eg rooftop housing, failing to deal with / monitor developer commitments to provide social housing, building on green spaces.

[alice]

Do you think a lifetime labour voter would shift to Tory Bailey over ltns? It was a desperate move for a loser. But locally I won?t be voting Labour again. They have betrayed the people they stand for. What happened to Fairer Futures for all? It?s not LTNs as a principle but where they were placed in Dulwich and who benefited that was the breaking point.

[redpost]

A pro-LTN mayor gives cover & support to pro-LTN councils and people have been known to register a protest vote ie. vote tory for a single issue.

Most people in london don't drive and welcome LTNs and this will be reflected in the local elections next year.