LTN: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3

[n dulwich northerner]

And no mention of bad road layouts causing congestion and delays to emergency services.

[Rockets]

redpost Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> And yet again, no mention of excessive car usage

> contributing to congestion and delays to emergency

> services

No because it is a story about LTNs causing disruption to response times - are you suggesting there should be a follow-up article on the delays being caused by the congestion caused by the LTNs too!!! ;-)

Clearly, despite what the pro-lobby would try to have us all believe the planters are causing issues for the emergency services - we have to all hope that we aren't the ones needing the emergency services. One wonders why the council is steadfastly refusing to remove them and replace them with something the emergency services agree with and it begs the question how much consultation was done with the emergency services in the first place.

[Raeburn]

But the article you linked to is about Sat Navs not having current data? I understand the systems in these vehicles take minutes to recalculate a new route, sometimes needing to be completely reset, taking 5+ mins. That was the issue in Feb, nothing to do with LTN?s

Problem is any reasonable debate is lost when things like this happen.

Strange thing is an ambulance would have been able to drive around the initial planters ....but people driving cars also kept mounting the pavements to drive around them. Ergo, it?s these drivers who have Put lives at risk - ?

[redpost]

I agree rockets, because pre-LTN london roads had less congestion & delays to emergency services than a 12 lane boulevard in 1970s pyongyang.

Rockets Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> redpost Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > And yet again, no mention of excessive car

> usage

> > contributing to congestion and delays to

> emergency

> > services

>

>

> No because it is a story about LTNs causing

> disruption to response times - are you suggesting

> there should be a follow-up article on the delays

> being caused by the congestion caused by the LTNs

> too!!! ;-)

>

> Clearly, despite what the pro-lobby would try to

> have us all believe the planters are causing

> issues for the emergency services - we have to all

> hope that we aren't the ones needing the emergency

> services. One wonders why the council is

> steadfastly refusing to remove them and replace

> them with something the emergency services agree

> with and it begs the question how much

> consultation was done with the emergency services

> in the first place.

[DulwichCentral]

Raeburn Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> But the article you linked to is about Sat Navs

> not having current data? I understand the systems

> in these vehicles take minutes to recalculate a

> new route, sometimes needing to be completely

> reset, taking 5+ mins. That was the issue in Feb,

> nothing to do with LTN?s

>

> Problem is any reasonable debate is lost when

> things like this happen.

>

> Strange thing is an ambulance would have been able

> to drive around the initial planters ....but

> people driving cars also kept mounting the

> pavements to drive around them. Ergo, it?s these

> drivers who have Put lives at risk - ?

That's a really good point Raeburn, and I've heard from someone who's relative is a paramedic that their satnavs don't update road changes as quickly as Waze. Apparently its older technology - NHS costs?

[Rockets]

Raeburn Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> But the article you linked to is about Sat Navs

> not having current data? I understand the systems

> in these vehicles take minutes to recalculate a

> new route, sometimes needing to be completely

> reset, taking 5+ mins. That was the issue in Feb,

> nothing to do with LTN?s

>

> Problem is any reasonable debate is lost when

> things like this happen.

>

> Strange thing is an ambulance would have been able

> to drive around the initial planters ....but

> people driving cars also kept mounting the

> pavements to drive around them. Ergo, it?s these

> drivers who have Put lives at risk - ?

Sorry these incidents were in August and Sept - are we reading the same article - looks like their sat navs take months to update?

PARAMEDICS SAY LOW TRAFFIC ROADBLOCKS DELAYED RESPONSE TO TWO LIFE-THREATENING EMERGENCIES BECAUSE SATNAVS DIDN?T RECOGNISE THEM

JOSH SALISBURY (30 November, 2020)

Medics have complained they were delayed to at least two life-threatening seizures in Southwark

5

40840

Image: Cook's Road before a camera-operated barrier was installed last month

Paramedics say they have been delayed on 999 calls to patients in life-threatening conditions because their sat navs have not recognised new ?low traffic? roadblocks.

Medics complained of delays getting to at least two people having life-threatening fits in Southwark.

One of the roadblocks singled out for causing delays to emergency calls is on Cook?s Road, SE17 according to reports written by paramedics for an NHS database logging patient safety incidents.

In one call on August 19, a paramedic crew was asked to respond to a category one emergency ? for the most serious life-threatening injuries ? for a fitting patient in nearby Olney Road.

A planter blocked the way on Cook?s Road, approximately 200 yards before the turn to arrive on-scene.

Crews turned around but then hit another barrier in Chapter Road, ?where another planter box in the middle of the road prevented any vehicles from passing through.?

This forced paramedics to take a longer route, taking roughly seven minutes extra.

Paramedics have also complained about a roadblock on Chapter Road SE17

On September 23 another crew who were again called to a fitting patient in a life-threatening condition but were stopped by planter boxes on Cook?s Road.

?This significantly delayed our response to the CAT 1, and we were delayed by approx.5 mins,? they say.

Another incident on August 30 reports a delay of ten minutes to a category two call for an emergency in Otto Road because of sat-navs not recognising the roadblocks.

?With sat nav unaware of new closures it could not reroute us,? states the report.

?Our response time to a CAT 2 call was significantly hindered as a result.?

A further delay was reported by a different crew of up to eight minutes on a call because of the ?brand new flowerpot road blockage? on the 12th September at roadblocks in SE17.

In another incident, paramedics complained of a delay on a 999 call because of council roadblocks in East Dulwich Road and Carlton Avenue.

Cllr Catherine Rose, the council?s transport boss, said Southwark was working with the emergency services to make sure they could get to patients.

?We?ve converted a number of permeable road closures to camera operated controls, at the request of the Emergency Services,? she said on Friday.

?Cooks Road is among these ? we introduced a camera system there, back in October.

?The Ambulance Service raised Chapter Road in a meeting with us yesterday, so we are investigating options here currently as well.?

Internally the ambulance service says it has seen ?multiple no/low harm incidents reported and an increase to on scene to hospital times,? as a side-effect of traffic calming measures across the capital.

The service?s chief operating officer Khadir Meer wrote to local authorities earlier this year to express his concern, and the ambulance service is consistently opposing physical barriers like planters on the grounds they could delay ambulances.

However, academics last week published a paper which appeared to show that LTNs do not cause delays to the emergency services.

Researchers analysed the response times of firefighters in Waltham Forest, which has had LTNs since 2015.

Academics found that while delays had not actually increased, a greater proportion of delays were being blamed on LTNs rather than less visible causes such as congested roads.

?These findings demonstrate that traffic calming measures can initially be identified as delaying some trips without any overall effect on response time performance,? states the paper.

Asked for comment, the London Ambulance Service repeated a statement it gave this paper in September.

The statement says they have the ?potential? to delay life-saving calls, and that the service is lobbying to make sure that is considered.

?That is why we continue to work with Transport for London (TfL) and local authorities, including Southwark, to ensure emergency vehicle access is properly considered, and the impact of any changes monitored,? said an LAS spokesperson.

A number of factors affect response times such as congestion, weather, and ambulance staffing levels meaning it can be hard to tell whether Low Traffic Neighbourhoods are causing delays or if any delays are being caused by another factor.

[DulwichCentral]

As you quote Rockets - ?With sat nav unaware of new closures it could not reroute us,? states the report.

Same point Raeburn was making - maybe their sat nav's dont update as quickly as others?

Rockets Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Raeburn Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > But the article you linked to is about Sat Navs

> > not having current data? I understand the

> systems

> > in these vehicles take minutes to recalculate a

> > new route, sometimes needing to be completely

> > reset, taking 5+ mins. That was the issue in

> Feb,

> > nothing to do with LTN?s

> >

> > Problem is any reasonable debate is lost when

> > things like this happen.

> >

> > Strange thing is an ambulance would have been

> able

> > to drive around the initial planters ....but

> > people driving cars also kept mounting the

> > pavements to drive around them. Ergo, it?s

> these

> > drivers who have Put lives at risk - ?

>

> Sorry these incidents were in August and Sept -

> are we reading the same article - looks like their

> sat navs take months to update?

>

>

>

>

> PARAMEDICS SAY LOW TRAFFIC ROADBLOCKS DELAYED

> RESPONSE TO TWO LIFE-THREATENING EMERGENCIES

> BECAUSE SATNAVS DIDN?T RECOGNISE THEM

> JOSH SALISBURY (30 November, 2020)

> Medics have complained they were delayed to at

> least two life-threatening seizures in Southwark

>

> 5

> 40840

> Image: Cook's Road before a camera-operated

> barrier was installed last month

> Paramedics say they have been delayed on 999 calls

> to patients in life-threatening conditions because

> their sat navs have not recognised new ?low

> traffic? roadblocks.

>

> Medics complained of delays getting to at least

> two people having life-threatening fits in

> Southwark.

>

> One of the roadblocks singled out for causing

> delays to emergency calls is on Cook?s Road, SE17

> according to reports written by paramedics for an

> NHS database logging patient safety incidents.

>

> In one call on August 19, a paramedic crew was

> asked to respond to a category one emergency ? for

> the most serious life-threatening injuries ? for a

> fitting patient in nearby Olney Road.

>

> A planter blocked the way on Cook?s Road,

> approximately 200 yards before the turn to arrive

> on-scene.

>

> Crews turned around but then hit another barrier

> in Chapter Road, ?where another planter box in the

> middle of the road prevented any vehicles from

> passing through.?

>

>

> This forced paramedics to take a longer route,

> taking roughly seven minutes extra.

>

>

> Paramedics have also complained about a roadblock

> on Chapter Road SE17

>

> On September 23 another crew who were again called

> to a fitting patient in a life-threatening

> condition but were stopped by planter boxes on

> Cook?s Road.

>

> ?This significantly delayed our response to the

> CAT 1, and we were delayed by approx.5 mins,? they

> say.

>

>

> Another incident on August 30 reports a delay of

> ten minutes to a category two call for an

> emergency in Otto Road because of sat-navs not

> recognising the roadblocks.

>

> ?With sat nav unaware of new closures it could not

> reroute us,? states the report.

>

> ?Our response time to a CAT 2 call was

> significantly hindered as a result.?

>

>

> A further delay was reported by a different crew

> of up to eight minutes on a call because of the

> ?brand new flowerpot road blockage? on the 12th

> September at roadblocks in SE17.

>

> In another incident, paramedics complained of a

> delay on a 999 call because of council roadblocks

> in East Dulwich Road and Carlton Avenue.

>

> Cllr Catherine Rose, the council?s transport boss,

> said Southwark was working with the emergency

> services to make sure they could get to patients.

>

> ?We?ve converted a number of permeable road

> closures to camera operated controls, at the

> request of the Emergency Services,? she said on

> Friday.

>

> ?Cooks Road is among these ? we introduced a

> camera system there, back in October.

>

> ?The Ambulance Service raised Chapter Road in a

> meeting with us yesterday, so we are investigating

> options here currently as well.?

>

>

>

> Internally the ambulance service says it has seen

> ?multiple no/low harm incidents reported and an

> increase to on scene to hospital times,? as a

> side-effect of traffic calming measures across the

> capital.

>

> The service?s chief operating officer Khadir Meer

> wrote to local authorities earlier this year to

> express his concern, and the ambulance service is

> consistently opposing physical barriers like

> planters on the grounds they could delay

> ambulances.

>

> However, academics last week published a paper

> which appeared to show that LTNs do not cause

> delays to the emergency services.

>

> Researchers analysed the response times of

> firefighters in Waltham Forest, which has had LTNs

> since 2015.

>

> Academics found that while delays had not actually

> increased, a greater proportion of delays were

> being blamed on LTNs rather than less visible

> causes such as congested roads.

>

> ?These findings demonstrate that traffic calming

> measures can initially be identified as delaying

> some trips without any overall effect on response

> time performance,? states the paper.

>

> Asked for comment, the London Ambulance Service

> repeated a statement it gave this paper in

> September.

>

> The statement says they have the ?potential? to

> delay life-saving calls, and that the service is

> lobbying to make sure that is considered.

>

> ?That is why we continue to work with Transport

> for London (TfL) and local authorities, including

> Southwark, to ensure emergency vehicle access is

> properly considered, and the impact of any changes

> monitored,? said an LAS spokesperson.

>

> A number of factors affect response times such as

> congestion, weather, and ambulance staffing levels

> meaning it can be hard to tell whether Low Traffic

> Neighbourhoods are causing delays or if any delays

> are being caused by another factor.

[Raeburn]

Yes, we are reading the same article that you linked to. Same as your comment about the link, you are choosing to edit and misrepresent, which totally undermines any respectable point you have.

You missed this bit;

?Shockingly they also reveal in February one patient appears to have died of a heart attack after paramedics were sent to the wrong road because their sat-nav misdirected them.

When they realised they were in the wrong place they called for back-up ? which was then delayed because they too were sent to the wrong location by sat-nav.?

If you are so concerned about response times, you should be discussing irresponsible drivers being the reason an ambulance can?t navigate a planter when their old sat-navs take them there.

[Rockets]

Ah ha...that part didn't select when I selected the page to copy and paste - it appears beneath a part that looks like the end of the article - so I can assure you that wasn't wilful misrepresentation - I am not that stupid! I have pasted it below for balance. But still, the point is valid: when the Southwark News submitted an FOI they found that the LTN road closures had caused delays in response times and this quote is quite compelling don't you think (I also think it is interesting the council saying that they are talking to Sat Nav companies - I suspect this is one of the issues - the emergency services):

Internally the ambulance service says it has seen

> ?multiple no/low harm incidents reported and an

> increase to on scene to hospital times,? as a

> side-effect of traffic calming measures across the

> capital.

>

> The service?s chief operating officer Khadir Meer

> wrote to local authorities earlier this year to

> express his concern, and the ambulance service is

> consistently opposing physical barriers like

> planters on the grounds they could delay

> ambulances.

Remainder of Article

The reports were obtained by the News under Freedom of Information laws by asking for incident reports which mention words relating to sat-navs.

Shockingly they also reveal in February one patient appears to have died of a heart attack after paramedics were sent to the wrong road because their sat-nav misdirected them.

When they realised they were in the wrong place they called for back-up ? which was then delayed because they too were sent to the wrong location by sat-nav.

?It is not suggested that the delay was wholly responsible for the outcome however the minutes wasted may have enabled the crew to be making better progress towards hospital as it was clear that the patient was very unwell,? the report states.

Sat-nav problems also caused one patient having a heart attack to be taken to St Thomas? Hospital when both St George?s in Tooting and King?s College Hospital were much closer.

And in yet another case, a father of a patient coughing up blood was forced to run off ?looking for ambulance and even jumped in car to look for ambulance,? after sat-nav errors.

A spokesperson for the Ambulance Service said ultimately the responsibility for sat-nav issues was with those who owned the software.

?We encourage our crews to report any road access or navigation issues so that we can share this information with the rest of our crews and follow it up with relevant London agencies and authorities,? said the spokesperson.

?However, responsibility for updating London-wide maps and satnav systems lies with the satellite navigation software owners.?

[Earl Aelfheah]

So assuming 'one dulwich' get their way, and we allow people to cut down side streets again in order to save a little time - can someone explain how this will discourage short car journeys and encourage walking and cycling please?

[snowy]

n dulwich northerner Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> And no mention of bad road layouts causing

> congestion and delays to emergency services.

Except that the London Ambulance Service just told the London Assembly that LTNs had no impact on response times: unless you know something different:

[Raeburn]

The issue is the Sat Navs not having up-to-date road layouts.

Your faux-concern is undermined by the vid linked to somewhere up this thread. An Alpha Romeo fully mounting two pavements to drive around the Carlton Rd planters. If a low slung sportscar can drive over the kerbs, an ambulance would be absolutely fine to do the same if it needed to.

More restrictive barriers had to be put in because people driving cars couldn?t be trusted.

I don?t understand you wishing ill on LTN supporters who might need emergency services, when it is vehicle drivers who have restricted the potential for emergency access - ?

[dulwichfolk]

You can?t really find it acceptable for any vehicle to be expected to drive on the pavement? So putting the blame on the idiot car drivers who got the planters changed is a bit of a stretch.

Clearly like any business the management are saying one thing (no problems with LTN) and the actual workers are saying something different. Who do you believe?

I?ve witnessed the ambulances attempting the turn into the various east dulwich closures roads a number of times.

[rch]

Sorry to have disappeared again... was going to post replies to some of the comments/questions about my past Green Bus campaign, but I?m now wondering if someone wants to start a new thread to discuss alternative solutions in general to the LTN/Healthy Streets issues so that we can try to move forwards in a productive manner as a community?

[Abe_froeman]

Good luck with that!!

[Raeburn]

Ambulances are allowed to drive on footways if they need to on a call. Feel free to look this up - ?

[Rockets]

Just some more evidence of the emergency services' dislike of immovable LTNs:

[Rockets]

This was taken from the council's own Phase 4 recommendations document for Peckham Rye

Emergency services have indicated they will not support schemes which promote hard road closures as they will increase response times. Their preference is for camera enforced closures without physical prevention for vehicles.

And then on a recent council live-streamed meeting the Southwark fire chief said that they were not supportive of immovable road closures.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Helping cars to use side streets as a 'cut through' to shave a few minutes off their journey, is not going to discourage short car journeys.

[Raeburn]

Nice distraction from your misrepresentation of the article you linked to.

So, moving on; these barriers could be easily movable (and relatively cheap) ...but they get vandalised and taken out.

Camera enforced barriers (relatively expensive) have been seen to raise a lot of revenue from fines ....and there?s a lot of opposition to this too.

Which is the best option?

[Rockets]

A pretty compelling one though isn't it! ;-)

Well, the council have created a right mess haven't they.....?

There are solid, movable barriers but they still delay the emergency services as they have to get out, unlock them and remove them. It will be interesting to see how Southwark choose to address this.

The problem for the council and the pro-closure lobby is that if you replace them with cameras that leads everyone to timed closures (One Dulwich) and that is not part of their modus operandi.

[dulwichfolk]

Raeburn Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Ambulances are allowed to drive on footways if

> they need to on a call. Feel free to look this up

> - ?

I can?t find this anywhere can you share?

Be interested in what other exceptions they have.

[legalalien]

I like the idea but I think everyone would need to get them self a new, alternative username... and try and agree on a prioritised list of ultimate aims on the one hand, and ?floors? in terms of maximum negative effects, on the other. And then get into the detail.

So eg what are the priorities in terms of clean air / active travel/ specific forms of active travel / equality / schools vs other areas

And what negative effects are a step too far eg how much displacement traffic or reduction in air quality on ?main? roads; effect on particular local businesses eg those who are delivery businesses, ability for those who need to live outside the area due to housing cost but have to work in the area / those whose income depends on things like speed of delivery/ number of deliveries that they do. I am sure there are more. So if we could maybe just start with a list of all the considerations before attempting prioritisation... but isn?t that how policy is formed anyway?

ch Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Sorry to have disappeared again... was going to

> post replies to some of the comments/questions

> about my past Green Bus campaign, but I?m now

> wondering if someone wants to start a new thread

> to discuss alternative solutions in general to the

> LTN/Healthy Streets issues so that we can try to

> move forwards in a productive manner as a

> community?

[exdulwicher]

dulwichfolk Wrote:

> I can?t find this anywhere can you share?

>

> Be interested in what other exceptions they have.

They're not exceptions, they're exemptions* and it has to be quite specific.

https://www.how2become.com/blog/uk-ambulance-exemptions-and-non-exemptions/

In practice there's a fair bit of leeway applied and I'm sure everyone has seen the Police, Camera, Action type programmes of police vehicles being driven in interesting ways during pursuits (again, some of it needs specific authorisation and pursuits can be called off if the hazard to other road users becomes too great). Emergency vehicles can also use segregated cycle lanes - there are a few videos on social media showing ambulances and fire engines in the city using Cycle Superhighway lanes, eg

*slightly pedantic legal definition

Emergency vehicle sat-navs are almost invariable awful, rarely updated and only capable of handling postcodes, not newer apps like What3Words or grid references. In practice, in urban areas this rarely matters too much but in rural areas where a postcode can apply to a wide area, it can be problematic.

Dealing with LTNs and other short-notice traffic stuff like temporary roadworks can also be problematic and some paramedics just back it up with their own smartphone. That problem is exacerbated if crews are working in unfamiliar areas - not all crews will work the same area all the time.

[dulwichfolk]

Thanks still doesn?t say anything about driving on the footways as the previous post said.

As you say though I doubt anyone is going to complain and leeway is given but I?m guessing the council highways department wouldn?t expect emergency vehicle to go on the footpath as a means of access on a regular occurrence.

Good point about the drivers not usually being familiar with the area much like some of the drivers going through the various blue bus gate signs but that?s another point...