LTN: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3

[Earl Aelfheah]

I think the south circular is going to be closed at least until Monday

[northbank]

Rockets Wrote:

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> rahrahrah Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > A significant number of car journeys in london

> are

> > only a couple of miles btw.

>

>

> Let's dive a little deeper into that because I

> know Cllr McAsh said in his blog that the majority

> of journeys in London can be walked or cycled.

>

> Here's TFLs data

>

> 35% of all car trips are shorter than 2km.

> 32% are between 2km and 5km.

> 30+% are over 5km.

>

> What I can't find from TFL is whether taxis and

> private hire vehicles are included in these stats

> - which would of course skew them massively in

> central London.

>

> People can make their own minds up now based on

> the actual data.

They are private car trips. Taxi and PHV trips are recorded as that and are a tiny percentage compared with private car. The Travel in London report combines them both into 'Taxi' at 1% of all trips with car at 35%

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/travel-in-london-report-12.pdf

[Rockets]

rahrahrah Wrote:

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> @rockets.

>

> So 67% of car trips under 3 miles. I would

> describe that as 'significant'.

But can they all be walked or cycled? A 6 mile roundtrip would be a significant distance for many would it not - especially given Dulwich is surrounded by significant hills on most sides?

As I have said before I think you can make a dent in the 35% shorter than 2kms but that's about it. That leaves 60%+ that are most likely always going to be done in a car. And I would be very interested to know what TFL counts as a car journey and whether private hire and taxis are included with that.

[Earl Aelfheah]

That?s actually pretty crazy. If true 67% of car journeys in London are less than a 15 minutes bike ride

[northbank]

Metallic Wrote:

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> Maybe they are short because the driver can't walk

> that far, or has too many kids to handle plus

> shopping,

but most of them aren't

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/analysis-of-cycling-potential-2016.pdf

[Earl Aelfheah]

Sorry, cross posted. 3 miles in a bike is very little. Not everyone will be able to do that and even some very short journeys clearly need a car if you?re carrying large objects etc.

But some of those journeys (67%!), must be able to be changed. Under 3 miles you?re looking at 10 - 15 minutes

[Earl Aelfheah]

I?m just taking Rockets figures as read. That seems like a high percentage to me, but maybe 🤷‍♂️

[first mate]

Precisely. The majority of journeys, say, half a mile are going to involve a rather steep hill. Were it a matter of flat ground everywhere for miles in all directions that would be different, but the hills are truly serious stuff and only the very fit will get up them on a regular basis. Much as some would like, this fact cannot just be airily dismissed.

Rockets Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> rahrahrah Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > @rockets.

> >

> > So 67% of car trips under 3 miles. I would

> > describe that as 'significant'.

>

>

> But can they all be walked or cycled? A 6 mile

> roundtrip would be a significant distance for many

> would it not - especially given Dulwich is

> surrounded by significant hills on most sides?

>

> As I have said before I think you can make a dent

> in the 35% shorter than 2kms but that's about it.

> That leaves 60%+ that are most likely always going

> to be done in a car. And I would be very

> interested to know what TFL counts as a car

> journey and whether private hire and taxis are

> included with that.

[Rockets]

And, of course, the numbers quoted by TFL are London wide and as you get further out of London so the journeys, invariably, get longer due to the lack of proper public transport infrastructure the further you get from the centre. So I very much suspect in an area like Dulwich the skew is much further towards the longer journeys, especially given Dulwich's proximity to the A205.

And of course TFL acknowledges that the more children you have (you might have noticed there are a lot of children in Dulwich - Nappy Valley and all that) the less the opportunity to cycle.

[legalalien]

Was just having a look at the agenda for Southwark?s cabinet meeting on Tuesday which will consider the LTN petition.

http://moderngov.southwark.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=302&MId=6663&Ver=4

I?d advise people to read the report by Councillor Rose at item 23,

http://moderngov.southwark.gov.uk/documents/s91336/Report%20Environment%20Scrutiny%20Commission%20Air%20quality%20response%20to%20the%20report%20considered%20at%20July%20cabi.pdf, this responds to recommendations by Southwark?s Environmental Scrutiny Commission?s Air Quality Report back in July, which includes some fairly controversial suggestions...

Haven?t read the whole thing yet but did want to share the first paragraph of the conclusion of the commission?s air quality report:

?It can no longer be acceptable for any transport schemes to be developed which cause increases in traffic volumes on other roads, particularly where there are vulnerable populations like schools and hospitals, and when we know those living in poverty, BAME populations and residents in areas of existing poor air quality are least able to cope with the effects of diseases like COVID-19?

That, at least, I think we can all agree on.

Edited to add link to report: http://moderngov.southwark.gov.uk/documents/s89830/Scutiny%20report%20air%20quality%20FINAL.pdf

[heartblock]

Describes the LL portion of EDG, ?It can no longer be acceptable for any transport schemes to be developed which cause increases in traffic volumes on other roads, particularly where there are vulnerable populations like schools and hospitals, and when we know those living in poverty, BAME populations and residents in areas of existing poor air quality are least able to cope with the effects of diseases like COVID-19? So time to rethink the gated community barriers and consider some positive changes for all - protected cycle lanes, easy to use cycle stores, public hire bikes, better wider paving, better more accessible local public transport, cleaner larger bus shelters.

[legalalien]

Agree heartblock. The recommendation about LTNs in the original report said this:

"8Recommendation 14: Introduce a borough wide programme of Low Traffic Neighbourhoods. These should be implemented:

 Over a wide enough area in order to realise the benefits of traffic evaporation, which has been shown to take place when there is a significant reduction of short journeys by car under 2km.

 As a priority in areas with high levels of public transport (high PTAL ratings), poor air quality, lower levels of car ownership, in areas of deprivation and where the programs would impact positively on local schools and hospitals.

 Where traffic may be displaced onto main roads, the council must monitor the impact on air quality, and mitigate negative effects in advance of implementation, possibly by widening pavements and creating cycle lanes, managing traffic to reduce vehicle idling time and introducing green screening programmes.

 In conjunction with the introduction of CPZ and a reduction of parking so the kerbside can be utilised for active travel and public realm improvements (such as pocket parks and cycle parking.)

 In conjunction with improvements to Public Transport and other work on adjacent main roads to increase cycling and other forms of active travel."

I'm not convinced the Dulwich LTNs that Southwark have chosen really match the priorities in the recommendation (not that they have to). To be fair, although there's plenty of detail I don't agree with in the commission report, it is very clear on the need for "social justice" considerations, which I guess is what Councillor McAsh is now picking up on...

[ab29]

Is anyone from here going to attend the cabinet meeting on Tuesday? Rockets? Legalalien?

[legalalien]

It says it?s live-streaming on YouTube

Venue: Online. This meeting will be livestreamed on Southwark Council's YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/user/southwarkcouncil.

Not sure if I?ll tune in to this. Only started reading up about this stuff very recently - and I don?t think it?s good for my blood pressure... is anyone else tuning in / participating eg in support of the petition?

[dulwichfolk]

I like that it says ?..it can no longer be acceptable?

Implies everything that has been implemented along with the bus gate changes whose orders have conveniently been added in the last week don?t have to pass this test!

[ab29]

legalalien Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It says it?s live-streaming on YouTube

>

> Venue: Online. This meeting will be livestreamed

> on Southwark Council's YouTube channel here:

> https://www.youtube.com/user/southwarkcouncil.

>

> Not sure if I?ll tune in to this. Only started

> reading up about this stuff very recently - and I

> don?t think it?s good for my blood pressure... is

> anyone else tuning in / participating eg in

> support of the petition?

Oh ok - thanks. Good point re: the blood pressure;) I wonder if they are planning any Q&A session with residents at all during that meeting.

[Metallic]

Tuesday 20 October 2020 4.00 pm, Cabinet

Venue: Online. This meeting will be livestreamed on Southwark Council's YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/user/southwarkcouncil.

http://moderngov.southwark.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?MId=6663&x=1

The agenda is posted online, it is on there that there are several deputations applying to be heard, with uploaded documentation in support of whatever they want to say.

There is nothing from One Dulwich but it looks like the RA from Dulwich Village has applied to be heard, along with one of the "pro-closure" groups.

I'll take a look but I would think it is a good idea to watch the live feed to see how the councillors discuss the mess that has evolved in Lordship Lane, Melbourne Grove and environs, Dulwich Village (here after known as East and West Berlin as we all can see, that silly square should be known as The Wall), and generally how they make a huge decision based on a few minutes from those making deputations followed by their discussion.

Boy there is a lot on there to read. However if we are all to get our roads and freedom to choose how we travel back, let's hope there is going to be some commonsense attached to the discussion.

It is probably rubber stamped; this is the pretend consultation. Just like Quietway 7 consultations and Mr Hargrove I think it was. Meanwhile thanks to the water main, the lower part of my road, Townley Road and Calton Avenue are all full of u turners who don't believe a red sign that says 'road closed'.

I'm not going to support the Labour Party locally ever again unless they undo this rubbish set of decisions, with worse to come when the other bits go live.

[Glemham]

With you on your view of the local Labour Party Metallic.

I never thought I would see the day when a Labour council is so enthusiastic about enforcing a policy from an extreme right wing, populist Tory government. Andrew Gilligan, once Mayor Johnson?s Cycling ?Tsar? and now ensconced in 10 Downing Street together with the rest of Dom?s Disrupters, is continuing the crusade he started with cycling super highways and Quietways (remember those?) Unelected and unaccountable he will presumably not cease until he has created a cycling Jerusalem........

[Serena2012]

heartblock Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Describes the LL portion of EDG, ?It can no longer

> be acceptable for any transport schemes to be

> developed which cause increases in traffic volumes

> on other roads, particularly where there are

> vulnerable populations like schools and hospitals,

> and when we know those living in poverty, BAME

> populations and residents in areas of existing

> poor air quality are least able to cope with the

> effects of diseases like COVID-19? So time to

> rethink the gated community barriers and consider

> some positive changes for all - protected cycle

> lanes, easy to use cycle stores, public hire

> bikes, better wider paving, better more accessible

> local public transport, cleaner larger bus

> shelters.

On this basis, I simply cannot see how Southwark can justify closing a road like Court Lane, one of the most affluent streets, in the wealthiest ward in the borough (and indeed, based on my Acorn research, home to some of the wealthiest people in the country). A road where car ownership is eye-wateringly high (check the 2011 census data if curious); and to which none of the above vulnerabilities apply, only to shunt the traffic onto Lordship Lane and EDG, which have far greater levels of poverty; far more social housing; schools where thousands of children are educated; a nursery; a care home for vulnerable adults and a health centre. It?s not as if EDG and LL weren?t already suffering from poor air quality.

[Rockets]

As I feared. The council is seemingly accelerating and pushing ahead with ALL of the next phase of closures. They will only consult with residents after 6 months but ?before 18 months?. They are not going to listen to anyone and Cllr McAsh?s words are as hollow as I feared. The attached was just posted on NextDoor from a resident in the Peckham Rye area.

They are not prepared to listen to the wider community. The only plus side is the chaos these remaining closures will cause will ensure more people engage with the campaign to get them removed.

This council is completely out of control and we are very much suffering from the worst effects of a one-party state. They are will fully ignoring local residents.

[legalalien]

I don?t think that ?consider people?s views? means consult in this context. I think it means they will consider any formal objections lodged within the initial six months of the order (as the experimental order process requires) and then move straight to permanent decision. I also doubt they?ll write widely to people explaining that they have to put objections in within six months if they want their thoughts to be considered at all. Is that others? understanding? It would be good if someone from Southwark could confirm this is the process (or clarify if not)...

[legalalien]

This is how one of the other local authorities describes the process

?Once the consultation period has closed all comments received will be reviewed and these will be reported to the Ward Councillors and Cabinet Member (where appropriate) for consideration of the next steps. A decision will be made on whether to continue the Order on a permanent basis.

If formal objections are received they will be considered by Officers but the final decision on whether to proceed will be made by the Cabinet Member (the elected Councillor whose portfolio includes responsibility for parking) or Head of Highways & Transport under delegated authority.?

Mass campaign of objections, anyone?

[Serena2012]

legalalien Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> This is how one of the other local authorities

> describes the process

>

> ?Once the consultation period has closed all

> comments received will be reviewed and these will

> be reported to the Ward Councillors and Cabinet

> Member (where appropriate) for consideration of

> the next steps. A decision will be made on whether

> to continue the Order on a permanent basis.

>

> If formal objections are received they will be

> considered by Officers but the final decision on

> whether to proceed will be made by the Cabinet

> Member (the elected Councillor whose portfolio

> includes responsibility for parking) or Head of

> Highways & Transport under delegated authority.?

>

> Mass campaign of objections, anyone?

Do we know if it?s like planning whereby there are only specific grounds on which you can object?

[holymoly]

There is a Council meeting this coming week and the Council will debate the epetition against the DV closures. The meeting will be online/virtual and starts at 4pm on the 20th Oct:

You can ask to join the hearing of the epetition objecting to the Dulwich Village closures by emailing [email protected] and asking to join the Council hearing 20th Oct starting 4pm.

You can read the agenda for this meeting on the following web link:

http://moderngov.southwark.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=302&MId=6663&Ver=4

[Rockets]

It will be interesting to tune in. Looks like the deadline to submit questions has passed...why do I suspect the pro-closure lobby would have been given a heads-up about this.

I very much suspect the council will say they won't do anything until the 6 months has passed for each closure and will push ahead with their, unlawful, closures.

Also interesting to see that someone set an e-petition up in support of the closures and it managed to get 29 signatures.....