LTN: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3

[first mate]

It wasn?t so long ago, but certainly prior to Covid and OHS, that the council justified the opening of LL M&S by stating it would not produce an increase in traffic or parking since most people would use active travel; the council stated traffic levels and parking in local streets around M&S were really not an issue at all. Very hard to make head or tail of the ?official? narrative and ?evidence? on traffic. It is incredibly inconsistent.

[Penguin68]

Well LL, EDG and the South Circular are all designated as A roads and have been for decades

They can be designated as arterial roads till you're blue in the teeth, but compared to the real arterial roads in North London (just compare the North and the South Circulars) or West London, or even in Bromley and Croydon they are clearly no more than local roads with an unearned title. Just because they have a title doesn't mean they're in the House of Lords.

To pretend that forcing local traffic from one set of local roads to another is justified by calling them A roads is just playing with language.

[Abe_froeman]

That's an interesting point first mate. Wasnt it also a condition of the planning consent that the m and s delivery lorries arrived from Melbourne Grove? That must be almost impossible for them now.

[first mate]

Abe, no the condition was for deliveries to be on Lordship Lane, a condition which is not adhered to but vans seem smaller. I?d imagine deliveries are more difficult whichever route. However, the really telling thing is the way planning and council were clear that traffic levels were not a concern- a very different stance from the one adopted for OHS purposes.

[northernmonkey]

Can you explain further? You used to be able to stick to the back streets when cycling but now can't?

macutd Wrote:

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> these changes don't mean that more people will

> cycle. I find it much more dangerous now.I can't

> just stick to the back streets and have to use the

> overcrowded, polluted roads that have been created

> by these side roads closing.

[first mate]

Might it simply be that his destination and therefore route has changed?

[Earl Aelfheah]

A reminder:

[first mate]

The slight irony is that very large delivery vehicle may well be for the Charter School build.

[Earl Aelfheah]

@dulwichgirl82 - you may be right about the middle ground. I do hope that there will be some analysis / reflection by the council and schemes tweaked as appropriate. I would really regret it if they just crumble to pressure from the motoring lobby and remove all the filters. It would be a terrible shame if we just revert to the status quo and give up trying to tackle the domination over every inch of the public realm by motor vehicles.

[Earl Aelfheah]

first mate Wrote:

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> The slight irony is that very large delivery

> vehicle may well be for the Charter School build.

Or simply cutting through from the Jewsons next to ED station.

[Dulwichgirl82]

This Twitter site makes me fairly uncomfortable as it doesn?t seem to acknowledge any of the problems this has caused, even when directly asked by east dulwich grove nursery. It feels like a propaganda piece.

rahrahrah Wrote:

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> A reminder:

>

> 251947008?s=21

[first mate]

Maybe, but so what? It is not unreasonable for a local business to use local roads to get from A-Z. I would hardly call it a cut through. The local business is construction and construction is a fact of life in the city. By far the biggest construction effort in the area is the Charter School and Health Centre.

rahrahrah Wrote:

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> first mate Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > The slight irony is that very large delivery

> > vehicle may well be for the Charter School

> build.

>

>

> Or simply cutting through from the Jewsons next to

> ED station.

[Galileo]

The planning application for both sites included an agreed to construction traffic management plan to arrive at the site from the Herne Hill direction to avoid construction traffic coming on residential roads next to the site.

[spider69]

rahrahrah Wrote:

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> A reminder:

>

> 251947008?s=21

Does the woman and her children not realise that traffic still can use the road.

Or is this "Look I can do whatever I want" and it makes a good picture.

[cwjlawrence]

@Spider69 - I think that the lack of traffic next to the school opening makes a very good picture as opposed to the backed up traffic poisoning the children.

I keep coming back to my previous point which is that all of our aim should be to fundamentally reduce the volume of car journeys. My 8year old daughter was left coughing and choking for about 1 minute after a Land Rover with terrible exhaust fumes drove along Calton Avenue this morning as she cycled to school.

And in turn, this was just after cycling up Hillsboro Road in a fog of disgusting white pollution from a car spewing noxious fumes. Even now - 2hrs on, I'm still coughing from this.

Thanks so much to these people who think it's OK to poison me and my children.

What is clearly needed is people to get out of their cars. I know that several people on this thread seem to dislike cyclists and their perceived holier than thou attitudes, but after the pollution I was on the receiving end of this morning (on quiet streets) then people need to wake up and smell the coffee (hopefully rather than the poisonous fumes!)

Apologies for the rant - it must be the fumes making me light headed!

[Rockets]

rahrahrah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> first mate Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > The slight irony is that very large delivery

> > vehicle may well be for the Charter School

> build.

>

>

> Or simply cutting through from the Jewsons next to

> ED station.

Err, the lorry has stopped, the cars are trying to go around it - the grey car in the foreground is going around it. I suggest the lorry was waiting to deliver to the new Charter School (maybe they didn't realise the rules regarding deliveries). Yet more wilful manipulation of fact by the pro-closure lobby.

Meanwhile....1.30pm yesterday afternoon on Lordship lane...and that is definitely not how it used to be....

[Metallic]

https://www.onlondon.co.uk/lewisham-council-to-announce-changes-to-low-traffic-neighbourhood-next-week/

This is to address displacement.

Also:

A debate about LTNs has been jointly-organised by On London and The London Society, taking place on 15 October, 6:30-7:30. Cost ?5. Details and tickets available from the Onlondon website.

[northernmonkey]

Are we looking at the same picture? There are cars parked on both sides of the street - the jewson lorry wouldn't be able to get through as there are cars on the left and queueing traffic coming towards it. Agree its stopped - but this doesn't mean it was delivering to Charter - more that it just can't progress and cars were inching through gaps like they used to do every day on these roads.

Do you really want 11 year old children trying to cross through that?

Rockets Wrote:

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> rahrahrah Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > first mate Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > The slight irony is that very large delivery

> > > vehicle may well be for the Charter School

> > build.

> >

> >

> > Or simply cutting through from the Jewsons next

> to

> > ED station.

>

> Err, the lorry has stopped, the cars are trying to

> go around it - the grey car in the foreground is

> going around it. I suggest the lorry was waiting

> to deliver to the new Charter School (maybe they

> didn't realise the rules regarding deliveries).

> Yet more wilful manipulation of fact by the

> pro-closure lobby.

>

> Meanwhile....1.30pm yesterday afternoon on

> Lordship lane...and that is definitely not how it

> used to be....

[KidKruger]

What Rockets said.

[Rockets]

northernmonkey Wrote:

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> Are we looking at the same picture? There are

> cars parked on both sides of the street - the

> jewson lorry wouldn't be able to get through as

> there are cars on the left and queueing traffic

> coming towards it. Agree its stopped - but this

> doesn't mean it was delivering to Charter - more

> that it just can't progress and cars were inching

> through gaps like they used to do every day on

> these roads.

>

> Do you really want 11 year old children trying to

> cross through that?

>

>

> Rockets Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > rahrahrah Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > first mate Wrote:

> > >

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> >

> > > -----

> > > > The slight irony is that very large

> delivery

> > > > vehicle may well be for the Charter School

> > > build.

> > >

> > >

> > > Or simply cutting through from the Jewsons

> next

> > to

> > > ED station.

> >

> > Err, the lorry has stopped, the cars are trying

> to

> > go around it - the grey car in the foreground

> is

> > going around it. I suggest the lorry was

> waiting

> > to deliver to the new Charter School (maybe

> they

> > didn't realise the rules regarding deliveries).

> > Yet more wilful manipulation of fact by the

> > pro-closure lobby.

> >

> > Meanwhile....1.30pm yesterday afternoon on

> > Lordship lane...and that is definitely not how

> it

> > used to be....

Yes we are. Maybe I am wrong but I thought there were dropped kerbs at that point of Melbourne Grove meaning cars would not be parked on the right hand side there?

I saw it as the lorry is trying to turn into Charter and cars are trying to go around it whilst cars wait to filter back the other way when those cars have cleared. Given the position of the on-coming cars it doesn't look as if they think they will need to go backwards and they would have seen that lorry coming from a long way off - most people give way to lorries that size!

Doesn't this go to highlight how subjective this has become? You see it as one thing, I see it as another.

No I do not want to see any 11 year old trying to cross there but nor do I want them to be breathing in fumes as they walk to school alongside the gridlock elsewhere as all you have done is moved the problem elsewhere. Actually if you want measures to protect school children then make it a school street and have timed closures - would that not have been a better way to go about it?

[slarti b]

Can any of the pro closure people, Rahrah,Northern, CJR Laurance, tell me which roads in the local area you believe cars and other motor vehciles should be allowed to use, and any conditions on that use, eg delivery or access only, not during school hours etc?

[Abe_froeman]

"My 8year old daughter was left coughing and choking for about 1 minute after a Land Rover with terrible exhaust fumes drove along Calton Avenue this morning as she cycled to school.

And in turn, this was just after cycling up Hillsboro Road in a fog of disgusting white pollution from a car spewing noxious fumes. Even now - 2hrs on, I'm still coughing from this."

Such a shame that even though they have closed Calton Avenue it has had no effect on pollution eh.

Anyway, it sounds like both you and your daughter have incredibly serious lung conditions if you were this badly affected. I would be seriously concerned if I were you and would book an appointment to see a doctor as soon as possible, but in the meantime I think you should invest in a pair of gas masks to prevent either of you coming to any further harm.

[cwjlawrence]

Hi Slarti,

Good question - I fear that I'm not going to give the answer that you want though :-)

I'm not pro closure but I am extremely pro a massive reduction in pollution. You may have read my post this morning about the pollution I was on the receiving end of on both Carlton Avenue and Hillsboro - it was disgusting and poisonous - and these are streets that should have benefited from the road closures! I personally feel incredibly guilty about the amount that I have used my car over the last 15 (approx) years of living in East Dulwich. I am trying extremely hard to now not use my car at all - and yes - it is very difficult to do so but it's all I can do, to reduce the amount of driving that I do and hope that others do the same.

I may be a bit stupid, but the problem I keep coming back to is that cars are so amazingly convenient that to get people to avoid using them is extremely difficult. Take this morning - I cycled back along East Dulwich Grove and there were people sitting in the lights at Alleyns/JAGs crossroads with their engines idling. If people are thoughtless enough to keep their engines running at a junction of 2 schools then what hope of getting them to get out of their cars?

My personal view is that it is necessary to make car driving not so convenient and other forms of non-polluting transport more convenient. I would do this through a number of measures - but unfortunately, I think they amount to the same thing - making it less easy to drive. Having grown up outside of London, I can see that we are blessed here with really good public transport and there nothing stopping us (apart from ourselves) to reduce traffic. Of course, there are very good reasons why people need to drive, but if I can reduce my car journeys by over 95% then I think that the majority of our community can too.

One thing that I hope we can agree on is that the road closures certainly are making us all think about our communities more and I dearly hope that the result will be a longer term set of strategies to reduce driving and make East Dulwich a nicer place for my family and of course yours also to live in.

Best wishes,

Chris

[Earl Aelfheah]

slarti b Wrote:

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> Can any of the pro closure people,

> Rahrah,Northern, CJR Lauranc, tell me which roads

> in the local area you believe cars and other motor

> vehciles should be allowed to use, and any

> conditions on that use, eg delivery or access

> only, not during school hours etc?

There are currently no roads that motor vehicles can't use. There are a small number of streets which are filtered - you can still drive a car down them, just not cut through.

[slarti b]

rahrahrah Wrote:

> There are currently no roads that motor vehicles can't use. There are a small number of streets

> which are filtered - you can still drive a car own them, just not cut through.

What do you mean by "cut through"?

And, as a genuine question I am asking not about teh current situation as what your vision is for the future, eg would you like to see closures on all side roads\residential roads so cars can use only "main" roads ( except for eg access or deliveries)

We have already had a couple of posts today from CJRLawrence suggesting she would liek to ban cars completely but I assume that is an extreme view?