LTN: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3

[Pugwash]

SE22-2020 writes;-

i don't think many people disagree that we all need a lot less car journeys in our cities (more difficult in the countryside). so what we need is more buses and things like boris bikes. Then disabled and old people should be able to drive if they have got a proper blue sticker showing they can't use buses and tradespeople get permits to drive. the rest of us get off our arses and use public transport. if they can do it in skandanavia then we can do it, right?

Old and Disabled people should be able to drive if they have a blue sticker - I guess that this is a Disabled Persons Blue Badge. Does he/she not realise that nowadays it is extremely hard to qualify for a Blue Badge. I have several friends with varying disabilities ranging from Alzheimer's Disease, severe arthritis, partially sighted, wheelchair users who do not qualify for Blue Badges. Those like my mum, who needed a wheelchair outside had great difficulty getting a badge as she could walk slowly around her flat. She eventually got a Badge when it was revealed that she was on CAPD (renal dialysis undertaken at home/in community twice a day) and she had to carry all her dialysis material around if she went out for more than 4 hours).

As a car driver, I have cut down on my driving now that I have retired and tend to use the car mainly for a large shop (I like to see what I an buying so do not do on line)visit family who live in Kent and Sussex. I use buses to get to Rye Lane, Forest Hill and Lordship Lane. I do volunteer to drive elderly friends at times especially in the evenings so they can attend meetings/social events. Due to my own disabilities I cannot ride a bike, and am limited in how far I can walk. Whereas I agree we need to have less polluted environment - there has to be a compromise.

[heartblock]

How about applying for a safer, greener, cleaner East Dulwich Grove.... you have 3 days to flood the website. https://www.southwark.gov.uk/engagement-and-consultations/grants-and-funding/cleaner-greener-safer

[dougiefreeman]

So the council have most certainly over-ridden the end date for my petition. It was the 21st Dec, they have shut it down today. You can tell it was a manual override because it says it ran from 1st Oct until the 1st Oct. gaining 2441 signatures in the process!

[first mate]

Do the Council always shut down petitions once a certain number is achieved? I guess they ran the risk of many more people signing and an even bigger figure would be bad PR for their LTN approach.

[northernmonkey]

Don't think they do - there is a position whereby over a certain number the petition can be discussed at a council meeting which has happened here. Perhaps the petition starter closed the petition?

[SE22_2020er]

i am really grumpy today - the number of people driving today along EDG was disgraceful - parents driving children to school, young healthy people sitting just by themselves in cars. all of them with there engines running.

if I can walk then i bet most of them could walk, cycle or get the bus. humans are so selfish - polluting our neighbourhood just so they don't get a bit wet. interestingly, lots of children walking, cycling, scooting along calton avenue - if they can do it why can't the grown ups?

sorry everyone, rant over. Have a nice day!

[Rockets]

I am sure there must be a good explanation why the council has closed the petition but they need to let the person who started it know as the optics of closing it are really bad, especially given no councillors are prepared to engage in any communication about the closures by email or any other means. Perhaps they didn't like what they saw! ;-)

Or perhaps rahrahrah lobbied them to close it as they did Admin on here to get duplicate threads on the road closures shut down! ;-)

SE22_2020er - unfortunately a lot of people don't like walking and cycling in the rain and because the council has closed lots of roads, on days like today it makes EDG unbearable. It rains, on average 106 days a year in London, but I don't think the council factored weather into their pro-cycling and walking campaign! I am afraid this is all too predictable and inevitable and another Achilles Heal of these closures.

[Spartacus]

Today is the first day of a week of rain and showers according to accuweather on my phone

Will be fascinating to see how many of the new cyclists are fair-weathered and how much more traffic will be on the streets as little Tarquin or Tamara get driven to school in the rain or so called non essential journeys to the shops are undertaken by car to save getting soaked?

The next week will be quite telling on how much traffic has really dissipated and how popular walking or cycling is in the squalid weather.

[SE22_2020er]

@rockets - I'm sure people don't like walking and cycling in the rain. i don't like it either - but i do it, because i've finally worked out its the right thing to do. is it more important that i get to do what i like than choking childrens lungs up with exhaust fumes.

don't blame the council - blame the selfish b**tards in their cars.

now i'm really grumpy :-)

[Metallic]

Abe_froeman Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Metallic, we had it on here that emergency

> services would be consulted:

>

>

> " ed_pete June 06, 12:49PM

>

> "But, isn?t it a coincidence that many of the

> measures they wanted to implement long, long

> before Covid just happen to somehow be exactly the

> right ?Fix? for the current situation?"

> Spot on. This is opportunism of the worse kind

> dressed up as listening to concerned residents.

> The 70% number is meaningless and shouldn't be

> quoted as justification unless it was achieved

> fairly and can be thoroughly audited.

> I presume the emergency services are OK with this

> btw."

>

> Posted by jamesmcash June 06, 03:53PM

>

>

> ed_pete

> Yes emergency services need to be consulted before

> any measures like this are put in."

>

>

> And:

>

>

> Posted by first mate June 25, 08:01AM

>

> James,

>

> Is MG having planters as well as concrete bollards

> now or just the former? Are the planters easily

> moved for emergency vehicle access?

> Planters

>

>

> Posted by jamesmcash June 30, 11:46AM

>

>

> first_mate - not sure of details re emergency

> services, but as I said before these things do

> have to be agreed with them"

>

>

> So you would think it safe to take this as

> confirmation that the council had consulted and

> agreed all these measures with emergency services

> in advance.

Well they clearly didn't tell their emergency vehicle drivers then. And I do not believe they would go along with it, fortunately I have heard of someone who has made enquiries and he is waiting the definitive answer.

[cwjlawrence]

Hi Spartacus,

I hear you and don't get me started on this topic!!!! My 8year old daughter cycled along East Dulwich Grove / Hillsborough and then along Carlton avenue to DHJS in the pouring rain this morning - she really enjoyed it once she'd reconciled herself to the fact that she was going to get wet!

Lots of other children walking and cycling but also plenty of children being driven to JAGs / Alleyn's / Charter. I just don't understand why Tarquin and Tamara (or Timmy, Tom, Tracy, Tilly +++) need to be driven to school in a city. Apart from the odd exception, children shouldn't be going to schools that they can't walk/cycle or get the bus to - if they have to be driven because it's so far then it sounds like they're not at the right school.

The last thing kids need is to sit in a car, breathing in other cars' fumes before they then have to sit in their classrooms all day. It is not good for them.

[Abe_froeman]

They are still breathing in far less and far safer fumes than we ever di, even with these ridiculous schemes backing up traffic all over the place.

[cwjlawrence]

Hi Abe,

Yeah, you're completely right! I remember the tang of the lead at the back of your throat when I used to walk to school as a child. I suppose we should be pleased that the days of lead poisoning are behind us.

That said, I distinctly remember cycling across Camberwell Green (crossing the A2) last summer and the air was so thick with fumes, I held my breath for a full minute until I could escape up Camberwell Grove. Just imagine what those vehicle fumes are doing to peoples' health there.

Chris

[JohnL]

lead was supposed to decrease brain function :(.

http://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/deadly-biology-lead-exposure/#:~:text=Lead%20also%20hijacks%20calcium's%20roles,release%20of%20chemicals%20called%20neurotransmitters.

[malumbu]

Major success in reducing lead concentrations - banning lead paint, stopping nasty industries and banning lead in petrol. Well done successive governments, academics, public health experts and the international community.

[Penguin68]

Yeah, you're completely right! I remember the tang of the lead at the back of your throat when I used to walk to school as a child. I suppose we should be pleased that the days of lead poisoning are behind us.

The majority of lead in the atmosphere came from flaking white (and red) lead paint extensively used both before and just after the war, and still forming part of the built environment many years later - tetraethyl lead (the anti-knock additive to 4* petrol) fell as (heavy, not air suspended) lead particulates in the carriage way and tended to be washed away into the drains. Not good, of course, but not breathed in either. I suspect the 'tang' at the back of your throat was coming from some of the many other air pollutants. Lead was removed from petrol not because it was itself a real pollutant problem (in the form it took) but because it destroyed (by coating them with lead!) catalytic converters, which were taking out the unburnt hydrocarbons which were and are a real health issue.

[cwjlawrence]

Hi Penguin,

I'm not sure I agree with you on this one, I'm pretty sure that lead was removed from petrol for health reasons. At this point you'll tell me you're a material scientist researching tetraethyl lead for the last 20yrs and I'm wrong but the evidence seems pretty strong!

Best,

Chris

Here's a good article from The Lancet:

Exposure to lead in petrol and increased incidence of dementia

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(17)31466-6/fulltext

And one from the WHO:

The worldwide problem of lead in petrol

https://www.who.int/bulletin/archives/80(10)768.pdf

The use of lead as a petrol additive has been a catastrophe for public health. Leaded petrol has caused more exposure to lead than any other source worldwide. By contaminating air, dust, soil, drinking- water and food crops, it has caused harmfully high human blood lead levels around the world, especially in children

[Penguin68]

I'm pretty sure that lead was removed from petrol for health reasons.

No, it was removed because it wrecked catalytic converters (which were of course needed to remove unburnt hydrocarbons, which were a health issue) . In the 70s there was a huge campaign against it in petrol, certainly - mainly because its removal considerably reduced the efficiency of petrol - it had been added to remove 'knocking' which was a problem otherwise with cheaper types of petrol - by urging health benefits the industry wanted to 'hide' issues to do with the poor fuel efficiency of unleaded petrol.

Lead is a very common element - but its very widespread nature (it ranks in the top third of commonest elements) was attributed to leaded petrol to prove a point. Whilst it is (slowly) water soluble, and was washed away into rovers and oceans off roads (eventually) its airborne 'life' is as paint dust, mainly.

It is of course poisonous and is clearly and properly linked to developmental issues in children - but the general claims against leaded petrol are probably ill founded, certainly as regards inhaled lead.

[mrwb]

Do you think it could be because getting wet and cold weakens you immune system? Also colder temperatures are ideal for virus replication. Flu, cold and Covid season will be getting going this week I would imagine?

A cold is called a cold for reason, long before people understood microbiology they were able to correlate the two things together.

All those people queuing outside the schools will be a perfect viral breading ground as well. Mad.

SE22_2020er Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> @rockets - I'm sure people don't like walking and

> cycling in the rain. i don't like it either - but

> i do it, because i've finally worked out its the

> right thing to do. is it more important that i

> get to do what i like than choking childrens lungs

> up with exhaust fumes.

>

> don't blame the council - blame the selfish

> b**tards in their cars.

>

> now i'm really grumpy :-)

[cwjlawrence]

Hi Penguin,

Let's agree to disagree on this one. No disrespect meant, but I'm going to go with the view of The Lancet, The World Health Organisation, the OECD and even the AA amongst a whole host of other august organisations! ;-)

Best,

Chris

[Rockets]

Someone has filed a legal challenge at the High Court for a judicial review of the Ealing Council LTNs. Will be an interesting one to watch because the filing claims the way the council has implemented then is unlawful.

[FairTgirl]

Rockets Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Someone has filed a legal challenge at the High

> Court for a judicial review of the Ealing Council

> LTNs. Will be an interesting one to watch because

> the filing claims the way the council has

> implemented then is unlawful.

Saw that also, from conversations with barrister and solicitor it is doable, especially if you can prove council did not consult properly, but very expensive if don't win. I think that is the only reason more groups have not gone down this road. If groups can get crowd-funding and still have time, (ie within 6 weeks of the date of Road Traffic orders) this may be worth investigating for them.

[Bicknell]

so when are all the other meausres going in like on Townley Road? anyone know?

communication not southwarks strong point

[KidKruger]

ha ha, please list what are Southwark's strong points ?!

[Spartacus]

KidKruger Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> ha ha, please list what are Southwark's strong

> points ?!

They are strong at NOT consulting with all stakeholders !