LTN: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3

[James Barber]

The alternative I found to driving my kids around when small - Nihola trike - http://www.nihola.com/home.html

You can try one out at London Recumbents in Dulwich Park who distribute them.

Kids LOVED It. Once had six little ones in it around Belair Park.

Best part was convincing them if they flapped their 'wings' it helped me cycle up hills.

Furthest cycled kids loaded was Coram's Fields.

Happy to share privately pictures of family using it.

Shaggy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Mrs Nicklin Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I can't believe this is happening. Cycling is

> not

> > really an option when you have to get 2 small

> kids

> > to get to school and there is literally no

> other

> > way that the South Circular and a car, electric

> or

> > not.

> >

> > The standstill traffic is horrific for

> pollution

> > and traffic AND not all the schools have even

> > gone back yet. We might have to take ours out

> of

> > their school as we just cannot afford a 1h 45

> min

> > round trip twice a day when we're both working.

>

> >

> > Totally mismanaged and selfish by the looks of

> > what I've read. You cannot just do this to

> people.

> > It stinks of NIMBYism

>

>

> This is clearly causing chaos, and inconveniencing

> many people. However, what exactly is selfish or

> NIMBYish about this situation?

>

> Inconvenient, yes. Annoying, yes. But selfish? Who

> is being selfish?

[Shaggy]

Thanks James -- that's really useful.

I'm planning to get rid of my car and get one of these:

https://www.ternbicycles.com/bikes/472/gsd

Most people who say that "cycling isn't an option" really mean "I don't want to cycle," or "I'd like to cycle, but I think it is dangerous," or "I could get a car for the cost of that bike."

However, increasingly there are cycling solutions to most problems. Hopefully, as prices go down, and uptake goes up, more and more people will realise cycling is simply a better option than sitting in a cramped little aluminium box, poisoning the world, and getting nowhere fast.

James Barber Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The alternative I found to driving my kids around

> when small - Nihola trike -

> http://www.nihola.com/home.html

> You can try one out at London Recumbents in

> Dulwich Park who distribute them.

>

> Kids LOVED It. Once had six little ones in it

> around Belair Park.

> Best part was convincing them if they flapped

> their 'wings' it helped me cycle up hills.

> Furthest cycled kids loaded was Coram's Fields.

>

> Happy to share privately pictures of family using

> it.

>

>

> Shaggy Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Mrs Nicklin Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > I can't believe this is happening. Cycling is

> > not

> > > really an option when you have to get 2 small

> > kids

> > > to get to school and there is literally no

> > other

> > > way that the South Circular and a car,

> electric

> > or

> > > not.

> > >

> > > The standstill traffic is horrific for

> > pollution

> > > and traffic AND not all the schools have

> even

> > > gone back yet. We might have to take ours out

> > of

> > > their school as we just cannot afford a 1h 45

> > min

> > > round trip twice a day when we're both

> working.

> >

> > >

> > > Totally mismanaged and selfish by the looks

> of

> > > what I've read. You cannot just do this to

> > people.

> > > It stinks of NIMBYism

> >

> >

> > This is clearly causing chaos, and

> inconveniencing

> > many people. However, what exactly is selfish

> or

> > NIMBYish about this situation?

> >

> > Inconvenient, yes. Annoying, yes. But selfish?

> Who

> > is being selfish?

[Metallic]

Balham Post Office has stopped receiving parcels from customers because the new road system means the collection van can't get near it.

Now we have a gorgeous yellow box in the Village (is there to be a camera??) right up to the planters, the collection of parcels may be a problem here too. Ditto delivery of essentials to the pharmacy. Once the double yellow lines are in and there is nowhere to park for these essential services, can someone with a cargo bike do the deliveries for the PO and pharmacy?

[FairTgirl]

As totally ridculous as it may be, perhaps ED DV residents need to crowdfund/club together and buy own air pollution monitors if council are not willing to monitor it - especially as lowering traffic and air pollution is one of the councils key aims, alongside active travel for health purposes, prior to the necessity of space for social distancing.

This whole plan seems to be so at odds with itself. Get out and be active, onto increasingly dangerous polluted roads, unless you are lucky enough to live and work and regularly walk along a closed one.

You are more likely to die from Coronavirus if you live in a polluted area. So keeping traffic congestion down should be the first reponse surely?

The overarching aims are admirable but the immediate effects appear to be opposite of what they are trying to achieve.

Build the infrastructure, the cycle paths, the tramlines, improve bus routes, make it easier and cheaper to buy electric cars, put in more charging posts, educate, educate, educate and perhaps you won't need to close roads at all.

We were told that they do have all the necessary traffic and air pollution data by a councillor yesterday for the road closures - though admitted the baseline was pre-Covid (who knows what time frame it represents as they didn't elucidate) so not ideal (their words) - we await to see it all with keen interest.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

Metallic Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Balham Post Office has stopped receiving parcels

> from customers because the new road system means

> the collection van can't get near it.

> Now we have a gorgeous yellow box in the Village

> (is there to be a camera??) right up to the

> planters, the collection of parcels may be a

> problem here too. Ditto delivery of essentials to

> the pharmacy. Once the double yellow lines are in

> and there is nowhere to park for these essential

> services, can someone with a cargo bike do the

> deliveries for the PO and pharmacy?

The post office van pulls up and double parks to pick up and drop off post at the post office at the same time every day, as it has done ever since the closure was put in. This is not much different from what happened before when they stopped illegally on the corner almost every day as there was never an available parking space in front of the shops.

Of course, this could be easily fixed by making 1-2 parking spots in of the shops delivery only.

[Shaggy]

No need to crowdfund. I?ve had one of these for two years, and it?s great and inexpensive. It is perfect for attaching to bicycle handlebars or a rear view mirror, if you are that way inclined.

https://plumelabs.com/en/flow/

[Otto2]

I remember that!

Around the same time, I rode a triple tandem with three seats and three sets of pedals for my school run with two small kids. In fact, I still have it if anyone wants to give it a try. I only wish Calton Avenue was less congested back in the day. You are all very very lucky.

ames Barber Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The alternative I found to driving my kids around

> when small - Nihola trike -

> http://www.nihola.com/home.html

> You can try one out at London Recumbents in

> Dulwich Park who distribute them.

>

> Kids LOVED It. Once had six little ones in it

> around Belair Park.

> Best part was convincing them if they flapped

> their 'wings' it helped me cycle up hills.

> Furthest cycled kids loaded was Coram's Fields.

>

> Happy to share privately pictures of family using

> it.

>

>

> Shaggy Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Mrs Nicklin Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > I can't believe this is happening. Cycling is

> > not

> > > really an option when you have to get 2 small

> > kids

> > > to get to school and there is literally no

> > other

> > > way that the South Circular and a car,

> electric

> > or

> > > not.

> > >

> > > The standstill traffic is horrific for

> > pollution

> > > and traffic AND not all the schools have

> even

> > > gone back yet. We might have to take ours out

> > of

> > > their school as we just cannot afford a 1h 45

> > min

> > > round trip twice a day when we're both

> working.

> >

> > >

> > > Totally mismanaged and selfish by the looks

> of

> > > what I've read. You cannot just do this to

> > people.

> > > It stinks of NIMBYism

> >

> >

> > This is clearly causing chaos, and

> inconveniencing

> > many people. However, what exactly is selfish

> or

> > NIMBYish about this situation?

> >

> > Inconvenient, yes. Annoying, yes. But selfish?

> Who

> > is being selfish?

[northernmonkey]

Or more accurately - it, along with the deliveries for the Chemist used to drive across the pavement and exit onto the Calton Ave side - hugely dangerous for the large number of children in that area. How they have never had a loading bay there I don't know - but apparently in Dulwich, even though everyone is suddenly very concerned for the disabled, there isn't even a disabled bay outside the shops and never has been, let alone a loading bay!

[slarti b]

@Exdulwicher you seem to be accusing OneDulwich of

"Taken a leaf out of Government's books. Discredit the figures you don't like, argue about how the figures are measured, change the method half way through... Government did it with Covid deaths..."

Remember that a major argument in the OHS consultations was that traffic through the DV junction had increased by 47%? This was as credible as Johnson's claim that the UK's track and trace system is world beating.

Remember C'llor Simmons saying in the OHS presentations that, if Southwark had know the traffic figures would be the ones they recorded in 2018 they would not have put Quietway 7 though DV? That was either complete ignorance or a blatant lie. Equivalent to Govt twisting of Covid death figures

Remember the figures in Soutwark's so-called evidence pack showing a huge increase in traffic along Calton avenue (despite it being contradicted by TfL survey) that was due to a failure in the measuring of the base data - making it as reliable as Govt figures on number of tests carried out.

It is Southwark Council and the local councillors who are following this rotten Tory government's abuse of statistic, not those who are making valid queries.

Unfortunately we are in a one-party state here. The councillors, cabinet members and local MP are all from the same party with every reason to support each other but no incentive to question or challenge.

Not a party political point btw, I suspect the same would happen if the controlling party was Tory or Lib Dem as well. But it still stinks.

[slarti b]

Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

What I like is the prospect of OneDulwich - entirely unqualified in traffic management and

> environmental monitoring - bickering over pollution measurement methodologies.

The OHS agenda and the subsequent so called "Covid" measures have been driven by the local councillors. Do they have any qualifications in traffic management, or indeed related disciplines such as engineering? From linkedin they seem to be a Digital Content consultant (whatever?) and a sugar trader.

AS for the council officer who has been key in the helping the councillors with OHS and the so-called Covid changes: he has based the justification for teh closures on a 47% increase in traffic through the DV junction. This figure is totally misleading, with base figures taken during re-building work on the DV junction in Sep 2017. He has also defended the strange traffic stats for Calton Avenue, used to support the DV junction closure, whilst unable to explain the discrepancies with the earlier TfL survey. If he is qualified in traffic management why is he behaving in this way?

I do find it odd that his email signature has no details of his professional qualifications but I will be happy to hear what they are.

Onedulwich has supporters who are engineers and professionals used to assessing figures (eg I studied Maths and Statistics and have worked analysing numbers for many years) and we also have an experienced traffic engineer for advice. We may not all be qualified in traffic management but we are able to recognize when people are trying to pull the wool over our eyes.

[northernmonkey]

The proposals on the One Dulwich website say 'we have drafted this proposal without expert advice from a traffic engineer' - is that untrue then?

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

Ha ha ha ha hahaha! Brilliant!

Is that the one where they propose a turning circle for goods vehicles that's the size of a child's paddling pool?

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

"Unfortunately we are in a one-party state here"

The odd thing is these people really believe they're being oppressed. They genuinely think that their cosy suburban life is comparable to living in Eritrea, Turkmenistan or North Korea. They're so privileged that the merest inconvenience (and let's be clear - we are talking about not being able to drive a car down a street) seems like oppression.

[first mate]

It does seem likely the council have justified certain interventions with misleading stats and you are quite right to question and pursue this. The idea that only those with qualifications in traffic management can ?understand? sounds a bit desperate.

slarti b Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> What I like is the prospect of OneDulwich -

> entirely unqualified in traffic management and

> > environmental monitoring - bickering over

> pollution measurement methodologies.

>

> The OHS agenda and the subsequent so called

> "Covid" measures have been driven by the local

> councillors. Do they have any qualifications in

> traffic management, or indeed related disciplines

> such as engineering? From linkedin they seem to

> be a Digital Content consultant (whatever?) and a

> sugar trader.

>

> AS for the council officer who has been key in the

> helping the councillors with OHS and the so-called

> Covid changes: he has based the justification for

> teh closures on a 47% increase in traffic through

> the DV junction. This figure is totally

> misleading, with base figures taken during

> re-building work on the DV junction in Sep 2017.

> He has also defended the strange traffic stats for

> Calton Avenue, used to support the DV junction

> closure, whilst unable to explain the

> discrepancies with the earlier TfL survey. If he

> is qualified in traffic management why is he

> behaving in this way?

>

> I do find it odd that his email signature has no

> details of his professional qualifications but I

> will be happy to hear what they are.

>

> Onedulwich has supporters who are engineers and

> professionals used to assessing figures (eg I

> studied Maths and Statistics and have worked

> analysing numbers for many years) and we also have

> an experienced traffic engineer for advice. We may

> not all be qualified in traffic management but we

> are able to recognize when people are trying to

> pull the wool over our eyes.

[exdulwicher]

The OHS agenda and the subsequent so called "Covid" measures have been driven by the local councillors. Do they have any qualifications in traffic management, or indeed related disciplines such as engineering?

Councillors deal with a huge range of issues across their constituencies, they cannot be experts in social care, traffic, law and order, schools, pollution, building controls and all the other countless issues / complaints / comments that cross their desks from constituents.

Their job is to collate it all, direct it to the right department in the council or Government where there ARE experts (either in-house or contracted in) who can deal with it in the appropriate manner.

Moaning that a councillor is not an expert in whatever the topic du jour is doesn't help. They're (supposed to be) experts in campaign work, working with representatives of local organisations, interest groups, businesses and residents etc. To be fair, most generally do try their best although like all generalisations, that hides the few that are genuinely brilliant and the few that are near enough invisible until election time...

[first mate]

Slarti b?s assertions are worth further scrutiny though.

[Spartacus]

I thought the councillors had employed officers who were supposed to be experts in these areas ex

After all that's what the officers who came to consultations on the CPZ claimed.

So whilst no one expects the councillors to be experts, the do have resources they call on internally.

[slarti b]

northernmonkey Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The proposals on the One Dulwich website say 'we have drafted this proposal without expert advice

> from a traffic engineer' - is that untrue then?

The website is correct. The plan was drawn up without expert advice from a traffic engineer. It is based on a proposal for a Low Traffic Neighbourhood in what is now called area B that we first put forward 4 or 5 years ago as part of the QW7 consultation. We adapted it and proposed it in response to the OHS consultation earlier this year, again without expert advice from a traffic engineer. We have been trying for several months to have meaningful discussions with council officers, ie a qualified traffic engineer, about the technical aspects of the scheme but have not yet succeeded.

As you know, OneDulwich now has over 1,500 supporters amongst whom are many professionals, including people with specialist knowledge of traffic management. They have occassionally helped by answering questions or raising queries about aspects of the scheme.

Hope this answers your question.

[Abe_froeman]

They do, and one of our councillors went back to the officer to find out more:

"Posted by jamesmcash May 04, 07:18PM

Hi all

I have checked and apparently the baseline measurements were carried out from 28th September to 16th October 2015, when there were no road works.

...

"

Posted by jamesmcash May 16, 04:04PM

Hi all

Regarding the DV figures - as I have said already, my understanding is that the figures are not from a period when there were road works. If you think that that is untrue then I suggest you lodge a complaint with the council.

..."

[Metallic]

Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Metallic Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Balham Post Office has stopped receiving

> parcels

> > from customers because the new road system

> means

> > the collection van can't get near it.

> > Now we have a gorgeous yellow box in the

> Village

> > (is there to be a camera??) right up to the

> > planters, the collection of parcels may be a

> > problem here too. Ditto delivery of essentials

> to

> > the pharmacy. Once the double yellow lines are

> in

> > and there is nowhere to park for these

> essential

> > services, can someone with a cargo bike do the

> > deliveries for the PO and pharmacy?

>

>

> The post office van pulls up and double parks to

> pick up and drop off post at the post office at

> the same time every day, as it has done ever since

> the closure was put in. This is not much different

> from what happened before when they stopped

> illegally on the corner almost every day as there

> was never an available parking space in front of

> the shops.

>

> Of course, this could be easily fixed by making

> 1-2 parking spots in of the shops delivery only.

The point I'm making is he can't even double park now because of the yellow box. Keep up.

[slarti b]

exdulwicher Wrote:

> Councillors deal with a huge range of issues across their constituencies, they cannot be experts in social care,

> traffic, law and order schools, pollution, building controls and all the other countless issues / complaints / >comments that cross their desks from constituents.

ExD, I was responding to DogKennel guy who was suggesting that people had to be qualified traffic management experts to comment on the OHS or Covid proposals. Thank you for supporting my response.

> Their job is to collate it all, direct it to the right department in the council or Government where there ARE

> experts (either in-house or contracted in) who can deal with it in the appropriate manner.

That is an interesting point. The council "expert" who has been the public face of OHS and the "Covid" measures does not seem to be providing the objective, professional advice I would expect. This is concerning.

btw I have asked you a couple of times in teh past for the names of the main roads along which the council wish to divert the traffic displaced by the current and planned road closures. I may have missed your answer, if so apologies. And by the way, vague references ot traffic evaporation are not an answer!!

[slarti b]

Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> "Unfortunately we are in a one-party state here"

>

A statement of fact. Our ward Councillors are Labour, the leader of the local group of wards is Labour, the cabinet member responsible for deciding teh schemes is Labour, the Council leader is Labour and our Local MP is Labour.

I have seen no scrutiny of or challenges to the current "Covid" traffic measures from within this Labour apparatus.

[JohnL]

slarti b Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > "Unfortunately we are in a one-party state

> here"

> >

> A statement of fact. Our ward Councillors are

> Labour, the leader of the local group of wards is

> Labour, the cabinet member responsible for

> deciding teh schemes is Labour, the Council leader

> is Labour and our Local MP is Labour.

>

> I have seen no scrutiny of or challenges to the

> current "Covid" traffic measures from within this

> Labour apparatus.

but the arch planner of all this is Andrew Gilligan who works directly for Boris and did so when he was Mayor.

Here's his twitter.

Notice a year ago he was critcising the current Mayor - what changed

[Rockets]

Abe_froeman Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> They do, and one of our councillors went back to

> the officer to find out more:

>

> "Posted by jamesmcash May 04, 07:18PM

>

> Hi all

>

> I have checked and apparently the baseline

> measurements were carried out from 28th September

> to 16th October 2015, when there were no road

> works.

> ...

>

> "

> Posted by jamesmcash May 16, 04:04PM

>

> Hi all

>

> Regarding the DV figures - as I have said already,

> my understanding is that the figures are not from

> a period when there were road works. If you think

> that that is untrue then I suggest you lodge a

> complaint with the council.

>

> ..."

The telling thing in Cllr McAsh's second reply is his use of "my understanding" a classic political back-step when you have dug a little deeper and realised there's something fishy going on and you really don't want to be associated with it in case it blows up.....I remember that thread as he went from definitive, to let me ask, to apparently, taking a detour via my understanding and then finally parking on raise a complaint.....read into that what you will.

The data that Slarti b highlights was published in one of the council's own reports and it was only when someone went digging to find it were they able to expose the lie that was being used as the basis for the original consultation. What the numbers actually showed was that traffic numbers had been steadily declining over the preceding years (not dramatically as probably needed but downwards anyway) and the 47% increase was an anomaly created after the removal of the DV junction roadworks which had caused a 50% drop in vehicles through the junction (if I remember rightly the post roadworks figures were actually lower than the pre-roadworks figures).

Thank goodness people are doing some due diligence to try to ensure the council are presenting accurate facts and stats and not lies that fit the narrative they want to peddle.

It does make me laugh how so many on here who are pro-closures heckle and deposition everything that is presented to them in a style that is indicative of those who lack a proper counter argument. So much of this has been about balancing the discussion and giving a voice to those who have been ignored and have been suspicious of the council's motives, methods and execution. I love the fact that One Dulwich, the petitions and the discussions on here are rattling the cages of those who had carte blanche for so long. At last the playing field is starting to be levelled and more and more people are becoming aware of, and having an opinion on, what is happening in their local area - democracy in action if you ever saw it!

[Rockets]

slarti b Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > "Unfortunately we are in a one-party state

> here"

> >

> A statement of fact. Our ward Councillors are

> Labour, the leader of the local group of wards is

> Labour, the cabinet member responsible for

> deciding teh schemes is Labour, the Council leader

> is Labour and our Local MP is Labour.

>

> I have seen no scrutiny of or challenges to the

> current "Covid" traffic measures from within this

> Labour apparatus.

Slarti b - your are absolutely right. There has not been a local single councillor who has done anything other than tow the party line or grandstand on this issue.

Before Covid Cllr McAsh was going door to door lobbying residents of Melbourne Grove and surrounding streets for the need to close Melbourne Grove because of the closure to DV (he posted images of his flyers on his twitter feed for those naysayers who will say prove it!!! ;-)) - he knew there was going to be a problem and instead of questioning it on behalf of his constituents (as many of us were urging) he gleefully went along with it.

And don't get me started on Cllr Newens.....she was tweeting just yesterday that "there is absolutely no doubt #dulwichmodalshift is real" but she does admit, ahem," that more needs to be done to reduce congestion". It's all a bit Comical Ali....