LTN: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3

[Earl Aelfheah]

...hopefully other Councils will show more leadership and allow the trials to run their full course. It will give an opportunity for people to genuinely compare and contrast .

[Charles Notice]

Yu mean like Champion Hill.

Monitoring in before closure, monitoring during closure for 18 months and after the 18months need another 18 months as they cannot give an answer.

Believe what makes you feel happy.

[exdulwicher]

Monitoring in before closure, monitoring during closure for 18 months and after the 18months need another 18 months as they cannot give an answer.

Believe what makes you feel happy.

The full monitoring report for that is here. The plus points outweighed the negatives so yes, it's essentially "semi-permanent" (or more accurately - intention to be made permanent) while further longer-term monitoring is done. That's standard - as it's been shown to be better in the short term, the "trial period" has been extended. If it can show benefits both short term and long term then it'll go from being "semi-permanent" to permanent.

http://www.camberwellsociety.org.uk/rw_common/plugins/stacks/armadillo/media/ChampionHillAreaMonitoringStudyFINAL.pdf

That's what happens when you leave a scheme in place long enough, you actually get meaningful data out of it. Wandsworth Council might like to take note of that...

[spider69]

Or the council hoping that people will forget about it.

[Rockets]

rahrahrah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Wandsworth have knee jerked at the inevitable push

> back from a long indulged and entitled minority

> being asked to share a bit more space with others.

> Interestingly though, the traffic jams caused by

> increases in people cycling and driving coming out

> of the lockdown (and as a result of people

> avoiding public transport in the face of COVID),

> have not eased. It will be interesting to see what

> people put congestion down to now that all the

> planters have been removed AND the alternatives to

> using a car in areas like Tooting, are to become

> less appealing once more.

But that's the point we have been trying to make for ages. The approach by councils to carpet bomb these closures in place lead/led constituents to think one thing: the closures are causing the problems. Everyone knew that car use would go up post Covid but that is being lost in the noise created by the closures. The closures have become an easy target to blame all the traffic ills on them. The councils were incredibly short-sighted and could not see what was going to happen and now have completely lost control of the narrative, they did not think in a joined-up manner and, as we saw across Dulwich, each councillor tried to pander to a few local residents and now have a huge mess on their hands.

Remember, Cllr McAsh was lobbying for the closures on Melbourne Grove on the basis of the increase in traffic expected when DV closed as part of OHS - at no point did he say, hang on a minute that closure in DV is going to create a nightmare for my constituents.

All councils, and councillors, will now be looking at political survival more than the rational behind the closures and I expect to see more decisions like Wandsworth's to follow.

[Earl Aelfheah]

@Rockets I ah e always said that I disagreed with the council?s approach. But now the LTNs have been created, I believe we should support them, at least for the length of the trial. My personal view is that we need to start allocating more space to pedestrians and cyclists to make it easier for people to chose those options for short journeys. Continuing with total car dominance Over every street is going to get us nowhere.

[Rockets]

rahrahrah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> @Rockets I ah e always said that I disagreed with

> the council?s approach. But now the LTNs have been

> created, I believe we should support them, at

> least for the length of the trial. My personal

> view is that we need to start allocating more

> space to pedestrians and cyclists to make it

> easier for people to chose those options for short

> journeys. Continuing with total car dominance Over

> every street is going to get us nowhere.

I don't disagree with you that more space needs to be dedicated to cyclists and pedestrians - but closing roads to through traffic is not the solution. We have seen plenty of schemes across London to dedicate large parts of the road to bikes and other non-car modes of transport and there is debate about whether they have increased the number of journeys being made by bike or on foot and how effective they have been.

A shared road usage plan, paired with a frank discussion on transport links, is the only way these issues can be dealt with effectively.

[first mate]

Rockets,

I agree, shared use is the way to go but admittedly it?s a tough nut to crack.

Rockets Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> rahrahrah Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > @Rockets I ah e always said that I disagreed

> with

> > the council?s approach. But now the LTNs have

> been

> > created, I believe we should support them, at

> > least for the length of the trial. My personal

> > view is that we need to start allocating more

> > space to pedestrians and cyclists to make it

> > easier for people to chose those options for

> short

> > journeys. Continuing with total car dominance

> Over

> > every street is going to get us nowhere.

>

> I don't disagree with you that more space needs to

> be dedicated to cyclists and pedestrians - but

> closing roads to through traffic is not the

> solution. We have seen plenty of schemes across

> London to dedicate large parts of the road to

> bikes and other non-car modes of transport and

> there is debate about whether they have increased

> the number of journeys being made by bike or on

> foot and how effective they have been.

>

> A shared road usage plan, paired with a frank

> discussion on transport links, is the only way

> these issues can be dealt with effectively.

[JohnL]

Rockets Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> rahrahrah Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > @Rockets I ah e always said that I disagreed

> with

> > the council?s approach. But now the LTNs have

> been

> > created, I believe we should support them, at

> > least for the length of the trial. My personal

> > view is that we need to start allocating more

> > space to pedestrians and cyclists to make it

> > easier for people to chose those options for

> short

> > journeys. Continuing with total car dominance

> Over

> > every street is going to get us nowhere.

>

> I don't disagree with you that more space needs to

> be dedicated to cyclists and pedestrians - but

> closing roads to through traffic is not the

> solution. We have seen plenty of schemes across

> London to dedicate large parts of the road to

> bikes and other non-car modes of transport and

> there is debate about whether they have increased

> the number of journeys being made by bike or on

> foot and how effective they have been.

>

> A shared road usage plan, paired with a frank

> discussion on transport links, is the only way

> these issues can be dealt with effectively.

The change this time was the government (shapps) said coloured parts of roads shared with cars aren't good enough.

there has to be physical separation to encourage people to feel they can cycle .

https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2020/07/27/well-build-thousands-of-miles-of-protected-cycleways-pledges-boris-johnson/#26e0def26b2c

[Rockets]

JohnL Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Rockets Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > rahrahrah Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > @Rockets I ah e always said that I disagreed

> > with

> > > the council?s approach. But now the LTNs have

> > been

> > > created, I believe we should support them, at

> > > least for the length of the trial. My

> personal

> > > view is that we need to start allocating more

> > > space to pedestrians and cyclists to make it

> > > easier for people to chose those options for

> > short

> > > journeys. Continuing with total car dominance

> > Over

> > > every street is going to get us nowhere.

> >

> > I don't disagree with you that more space needs

> to

> > be dedicated to cyclists and pedestrians - but

> > closing roads to through traffic is not the

> > solution. We have seen plenty of schemes across

> > London to dedicate large parts of the road to

> > bikes and other non-car modes of transport and

> > there is debate about whether they have

> increased

> > the number of journeys being made by bike or on

> > foot and how effective they have been.

> >

> > A shared road usage plan, paired with a frank

> > discussion on transport links, is the only way

> > these issues can be dealt with effectively.

>

> The change this time was the government (shapps)

> said coloured parts of roads shared with cars

> aren't good enough.

>

> there has to be physical separation to encourage

> people to feel they can cycle .

>

> https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2020/07/2

> 7/well-build-thousands-of-miles-of-protected-cycle

> ways-pledges-boris-johnson/#26e0def26b2c

I don't think that you'll find too many people who will disagree with that on here and that is what has been happening for a long time now across London with the cycle superhighways. The challenge, of course, is determining how to do it - it's easy to do it across Vauxhall Bridge or on roads with a lot of space but more challenging elsewhere.

But you can find quiet routes to navigate your way around them - you don't have to fight your way along Camberwell New Road and around The Oval to get to town. And nor do you have to close roads to through traffic to achieve it.

When I used to cycle to Hammersmith there was this great cycling website (I think it was from a cycle group but can't remember where) that plotted a route for you that avoided the traffic hotspots so I used to have a really pleasant cycle (well except the bit up and down Dog Kennel Hill - great way to start and finish a 50 minute cycle!) around the back of Ruskin park, then around the back of Brixton, along Union Road, around Battersea Park then behind Queen's Club to Hammersmith and there was probably one or two spots where you had to be super careful but it was a great way to avoid traffic. So there have always been ways to find routes where people feel safe.

[Wil72]

But this is for Melbourne Grove not Dulwich Village closures...is there no petition for that as it is totally separate?

If not, please can someone set one up?

[Rockets]

Looks like we have these closures for a minimum of six months.

Per yesterday's OneDulwich update which I have pasted from their email:

On 19 June, decision-maker Councillor Livingstone said, ?The measures are flexible as the experimental nature of the trial allows us to make amendments and changes within the first six months.? But he seems to have changed his mind. In a recent email to One Dulwich on 12 September, he says, ?The council has stated that we will review the permeable filter trial after its six months? The current scheme has only been in place for two months and we do not believe that this is a sufficient period within which to fully assess whether it has been a success.?

In neighbouring Wandsworth, the council has acted more quickly, and has decided its scheme isn?t working. The planters are being removed this week. In Ealing, Islington and Lambeth, thousands of people turned out this weekend to protest against road closures. Transport minister Grant Shapps ([email protected]), who gave the funds to local councils to put in emergency measures, said in the Telegraph last week that some of the trials hadn?t worked, ?We?re also telling councils that now the height of the emergency has passed, there?s time to consult people more. Where some councils have abused the cash, my message is clear: speak to local residents, get it fixed or no more cash.?

Unfortunately, Southwark Council seems intent on listening to lobbyists from outside the area, and a vocal minority who personally benefit from road closures, rather than the majority who live and work in and around Dulwich.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Do people really want to see traffic funnelled down roads like Melbourne Grove? Do people really believe that if you do, EDG will suddenly become free of congestion?

They've removed all the planters in Tooting and it's made no difference at all, except now there is congestion everywhere, not just the main roads.

[snowy]

Rockets Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Looks like we have these closures for a minimum of

> six months.

>

> Per yesterday's OneDulwich update which I have

> pasted from their email:

>

> On 19 June, decision-maker Councillor Livingstone

> said, ?The measures are flexible as the

> experimental nature of the trial allows us to make

> amendments and changes within the first six

> months.? But he seems to have changed his mind. In

> a recent email to One Dulwich on 12 September, he

> says, ?The council has stated that we will review

> the permeable filter trial after its six months?

> The current scheme has only been in place for two

> months and we do not believe that this is a

> sufficient period within which to fully assess

> whether it has been a success.?

>

> In neighbouring Wandsworth, the council has acted

> more quickly, and has decided its scheme isn?t

> working. The planters are being removed this week.

> In Ealing, Islington and Lambeth, thousands of

> people turned out this weekend to protest against

> road closures. Transport minister Grant Shapps

> ([email protected]), who gave the funds to

> local councils to put in emergency measures, said

> in the Telegraph last week that some of the trials

> hadn?t worked, ?We?re also telling councils that

> now the height of the emergency has passed,

> there?s time to consult people more. Where some

> councils have abused the cash, my message is

> clear: speak to local residents, get it fixed or

> no more cash.?

>

> Unfortunately, Southwark Council seems intent on

> listening to lobbyists from outside the area, and

> a vocal minority who personally benefit from road

> closures, rather than the majority who live and

> work in and around Dulwich.

There were 100 protesting people in Lambeth on Saturday- definitely not thousands

[Mrs D]

I think the issue in EDG is more due to the Dulwich Village junction being closed at Carlton avenue and cars now going via EDG. Cars also go down Townley but due to traffic light phasing, I think more people now drive the long way around on LL and then EDG.

[Earl Aelfheah]

rahrahrah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Do people really want to see traffic funnelled

> down roads like Melbourne Grove? Do people really

> believe that if you do, EDG will suddenly become

> free of congestion?

> They've removed all the planters in Tooting and

> it's made no difference at all, except now there

> is congestion everywhere, not just the main roads.

Because I don't believe it. I think that in the majority of cases, people are just frustrated that they can't take the most direct route to where they're going / drive where they want. It's nothing to do with their concern for pollution, BAME communities, the elderly, or congestion. You cannot get rid of congestion by encouraging more car journeys. I dunno, I'm sure some of these concerns are genuine in some cases, but there are a lot of people who really just don't want any impediment to their driving wherever they want imo.

If you remove all the planters, within a couple of weeks, the congestion will be right back to where it was before. It will make no difference, except side roads will also fill up.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Mrs D Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I think the issue in EDG is more due to the

> Dulwich Village junction being closed at Carlton

> avenue and cars now going via EDG. Cars also go

> down Townley but due to traffic light phasing, I

> think more people now drive the long way around on

> LL and then EDG.

They do need to look at the phasing. There are queues looking to turn on to an empty EDG at the junction with the Village.

[Abe_froeman]

They can't change the phasing to favour a right turn onto EDG because it will slow down buses travelling in both directions on EDG and Red Post Hill. For someone so committed to this I would have thought you would have known that

[Dulwichgirl82]

I can?t speak for everyone but I rarely drive, I?m usually a pedestrian often with small

Children and due to where we live the closures don?t really effect my journey times. So from a selfish perspective (which we all have) my concern is for the pollution in the ?communal areas? such as lordship lane and goose green where I take my children which I feel is worse since the closures . However I also dislike seeing inequality and this feels sadly the case. I would love to reduce car use over the borough, for everyone, but I don?t think helping some and making it much worse for others is fair.

I actually think we are roughly on the same side regarding car use but possibly not in the respect of what is fair.

rahrahrah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> rahrahrah Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Do people really want to see traffic funnelled

> > down roads like Melbourne Grove? Do people

> really

> > believe that if you do, EDG will suddenly

> become

> > free of congestion?

> > They've removed all the planters in Tooting and

> > it's made no difference at all, except now

> there

> > is congestion everywhere, not just the main

> roads.

>

> Because I don't believe it. I think that in the

> majority of cases, people are just frustrated that

> they can't take the most direct route to where

> they're going / drive where they want. It's

> nothing to do with their concern for pollution,

> BAME communities, the elderly, or congestion. You

> cannot get rid of congestion by encouraging more

> car journeys. I dunno, I'm sure some of these

> concerns are genuine in some cases, but there are

> a lot of people who really just don't want any

> impediment to their driving wherever they want

> imo.

> If you remove all the planters, within a couple of

> weeks, the congestion will be right back to where

> it was before. It will make no difference, except

> side roads will also fill up.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Dulwichgirl82 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I can?t speak for everyone but I rarely drive, I?m

> usually a pedestrian often with small

> Children and due to where we live the closures

> don?t really effect my journey times. So from a

> selfish perspective (which we all have) my

> concern is for the pollution in the ?communal

> areas? such as lordship lane and goose green where

> I take my children which I feel is worse since the

> closures . However I also dislike seeing

> inequality and this feels sadly the case. I would

> love to reduce car use over the borough, for

> everyone, but I don?t think helping some and

> making it much worse for others is fair.

> I actually think we are roughly on the same side

> regarding car use but possibly not in the respect

> of what is fair.

Fair enough. I just wonder how much difference it would really make if we were to remove all the planters. Traffic levels have increased all over london since we came out of lockdown, even in the outer boroughs. In Tooting, where they've reversed all the changes, congestion hasn't improved, it's just made side roads more dangerous and polluted too.

[dulwichfolk]

rahrahrah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Dulwichgirl82 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I can?t speak for everyone but I rarely drive,

> I?m

> > usually a pedestrian often with small

> > Children and due to where we live the closures

> > don?t really effect my journey times. So from a

> > selfish perspective (which we all have) my

> > concern is for the pollution in the ?communal

> > areas? such as lordship lane and goose green

> where

> > I take my children which I feel is worse since

> the

> > closures . However I also dislike seeing

> > inequality and this feels sadly the case. I

> would

> > love to reduce car use over the borough, for

> > everyone, but I don?t think helping some and

> > making it much worse for others is fair.

> > I actually think we are roughly on the same

> side

> > regarding car use but possibly not in the

> respect

> > of what is fair.

>

> Fair enough. I just wonder how much difference it

> would really make if we were to remove all the

> planters. Traffic levels have increased all over

> london since we came out of lockdown, even in the

> outer boroughs. In Tooting, where they've reversed

> all the changes, congestion hasn't improved, it's

> just made side roads more dangerous and polluted

> too.

With regards the tooting reversal still showing congestion...clearly you need to give it time for the reversal to bed in and traffic to change....

[Earl Aelfheah]

Fair enough (although they didn't give the LTNs the same chance). But make an educated guess. What do you think @dulwichfolk - Do you think that the congestion is going to significantly improve now in Tooting?

[ali2007]

I haven't been following this thread so apologies if I'm repeating what's already been said.

however:

1. drivers not being able to take the most direct route to their destination INCREASES pollution, it doesn't decrease pollution

2. A cabby just told me that the reason the side roads are being blocked is because Sadiq is extending the Ultra-Low Emission Zone up to the North and South Circular boundary in 2021. The mayor can't afford to put cameras on every side road - and therefore is having to push all traffic onto main roads which is where cameras will be placed.

3. A fire engine got trapped by one of the 'covid road blocks' and was unable to get to their destination

4. Paramedics have been unable to get to patients because of the road blocks

5. Wandsworth protested about the road closures and they have been removed.

IMO the road blocks don't benefit anyone apart from the coffers in the mayors office.

I am pro environment and pro air quality (I think we all are) but I can't fathom how increasing journey times will decrease air pollution.

[dulwichfolk]

rahrahrah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Fair enough (although they didn't give the LTNs

> the same chance). But make an educated guess. What

> do you think @dulwichfolk - Do you think that the

> congestion is going to significantly improve now

> in Tooting?

I think the pollution will improve for those already suffering the highest levels.

Maybe better overall due to shorter less stationary traffic.

It is a bit like flight paths and how noise is being concentrated to the unlucky few

[Dulwichgirl82]

I guess what I want to ask is do you think the traffic which uses these roads only appears and disappears if they are open or not? Otherwise if the same(ish) traffic is either using 5 roads or 1 road then clearly

There would be less congestion using 5 though I?d imagine not evenly distributed.

I don?t think Closing these roads has made the cars which used them previously disappear, so they logically have been diverted onto other roads to the detriment of those living and using those them.

rahrahrah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Dulwichgirl82 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I can?t speak for everyone but I rarely drive,

> I?m

> > usually a pedestrian often with small

> > Children and due to where we live the closures

> > don?t really effect my journey times. So from a

> > selfish perspective (which we all have) my

> > concern is for the pollution in the ?communal

> > areas? such as lordship lane and goose green

> where

> > I take my children which I feel is worse since

> the

> > closures . However I also dislike seeing

> > inequality and this feels sadly the case. I

> would

> > love to reduce car use over the borough, for

> > everyone, but I don?t think helping some and

> > making it much worse for others is fair.

> > I actually think we are roughly on the same

> side

> > regarding car use but possibly not in the

> respect

> > of what is fair.

>

> Fair enough. I just wonder how much difference it

> would really make if we were to remove all the

> planters. Traffic levels have increased all over

> london since we came out of lockdown, even in the

> outer boroughs. In Tooting, where they've reversed

> all the changes, congestion hasn't improved, it's

> just made side roads more dangerous and polluted

> too.