LTN: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3

[Abe_froeman]

The government did not impose a condition that the congestion charge be increased to ?15, from 7am to 10pm 7 days a week,the Mayor chose those terms.

During Lockdown:

The Mayor also chose to cut capacity on the tubes by 70%

The Mayor also chose not to charge the congestion charge up until the point TFL went bankrupt.

The Mayor also chose not to charge people to use buses up until the point TFL went bankrupt.

The Mayor also chose not to suspend free travel for pensioners up until TFL went bust.

The Mayor also chose to insist that people would die if we used the tube.

Those are all facts not political arguments.

Now he has to recoup all that lost revenue and one way of doing it is to try to force people back onto public transport by making it very difficult for them to use their cars.

[exdulwicher]

Nope, it came direct from DfT.

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/board-20200602-agenda-and-papers-supplentary.pdf

There's an easier to digest version in various City finance publications eg:

https://www.cityam.com/tfl-bailout-conditions-published-as-rescue-row-rolls-on/

and

https://www.citymetric.com/transport/whats-actually-uk-government-s-bailout-package-transport-london-5170

TfL had one or two areas of discretion but the current Active Travel plan is also linked to TfL's future funding. Basically, if they DON'T do it, no more funding.

Rock, meet Hard Place. Hard Place, this is Rock.

[Dulwichgirl82]

12.50 on a Friday. Idling traffic all the way to the medical

Centre

[seenbeen]

Dulwichgirl82 Wrote:

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> 12.50 on a Friday. Idling traffic all the way to

> the medical

> Centre

Add to that the thick lorry and van drivers leaving engines idling- it is not cold out, your engine is modern - turn the bloody thing OFF

[Abe_froeman]

Thanks Ex Duwlicher, the first TFL document confirms the proposal came form TFL which the mayor is in charge of :

"On 15 May, we also announced our

proposal to increase the congestion

charge from ?11.50 to ?15 daily, extend the

hours of operations to include evenings

(up to 10pm) and weekends, temporarily

close the residents? discount to new

applicants and make other consequential

changes. "

"Our" being TFL / the Mayor.

[Penguin68]

Oh, that would be the 'I'm postponing the election and I p*** on your parade' Mayor of London would it?

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

Dulwichgirl82 Wrote:

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> 12.50 on a Friday. Idling traffic all the way to

> the medical

> Centre

5pm on a Wednesday, absolutely no traffic on that stretch of the road at all.

[Dulwichgirl82]

Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Dulwichgirl82 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > 12.50 on a Friday. Idling traffic all the way

> to

> > the medical

> > Centre

>

>

> 5pm on a Wednesday, absolutely no traffic on that

> stretch of the road at all.

I?m

Sure there will

Be times there isn?t. But having just walked back at 2pm it was still there. I don?t live on that road but feel very sorry for those that do. (Also it?s a long way from the junction, that should be the norm!!)

[bels123]

Dulwichgirl82 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Dulwichgirl82 Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > 12.50 on a Friday. Idling traffic all the way

> > to

> > > the medical

> > > Centre

> >

> >

> > 5pm on a Wednesday, absolutely no traffic on

> that

> > stretch of the road at all.

> I?m

> Sure there will

> Be times there isn?t. But having just walked back

> at 2pm it was still there. I don?t live on that

> road but feel very sorry for those that do. (Also

> it?s a long way from the junction, that should be

> the norm!!)

There can be more than one cause for a tailback there.

Hopefully something the council can quickly address.

[Dulwichgirl82]

bels123 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Dulwichgirl82 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > Dulwichgirl82 Wrote:

> > >

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> >

> > > -----

> > > > 12.50 on a Friday. Idling traffic all the

> way

> > > to

> > > > the medical

> > > > Centre

> > >

> > >

> > > 5pm on a Wednesday, absolutely no traffic on

> > that

> > > stretch of the road at all.

> > I?m

> > Sure there will

> > Be times there isn?t. But having just walked

> back

> > at 2pm it was still there. I don?t live on that

> > road but feel very sorry for those that do.

> (Also

> > it?s a long way from the junction, that should

> be

> > the norm!!)

>

> There can be more than one cause for a tailback

> there.

>

> 930964993?s=21

>

> Hopefully something the council can quickly

> address.

Of course though not in this case as I walked past the EDG/LL and it was just queuing traffic.

[Rockets]

exdulwicher Wrote:

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> Abe_froeman Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > The Mayor is desperate for people to get back

> onto

> > public transport because TFL has gone bankrupt

> on

> > his watch. (They won't though because the Mayor

> > also said that people will die if they travel

> on

> > the tube).

>

> That's politics in play right there.

>

> TfL would have gone bankrupt anyway no matter who

> was Mayor given the Covid crisis. Half their

> funding comes from fares and that's collapsed.

> So the Government bailed out TfL (quite rightly).

> They then put a host of conditions onto that

> bailout such as the increased congestion charge

> (both pricing and hours of operation). That wasn't

> SK running that through, it was central Government

> but it suits them very well to have everyone

> blaming the Labour Mayor.

>

> There's similar political posturing going on now

> over Hammersmith Bridge - Grant Shapps said it's

> been in a terrible state for decades which

> presumably also means the point when Boris was

> Mayor of London... However it's being blamed on

> SK. But the infrastructure money comes from

> central Government so it's more or less been in

> the hands of the Conservatives for the last

> decade!

>

> It's all just political point scoring. Sod the

> constituents, politics is now just arguments on

> Twitter as one Minister or councillor seeks to

> belittle another.

The thought had crossed my mind that this initiative was promoted by the Tories with them knowing full well that it would be like catnip to some London boroughs and they would begin carpet bombing closures and ultimately annoying the hell out of the constituents and potentially destabilising the political landscape. But then I realised it is a Tory govt and they aren't very smart so probably could not have cooked up such a devilish plan.

I do think the Mayor's office is going to take the brunt of this and the fact Lambeth weren't interviewed for the ITV London news piece suggest the council may not be too keen to stick their head above the trench on this.

[nxjen]

?But then I realised it is a Tory govt and they aren't very smart so probably could not have cooked up such a devilish plan.?

Dominic Cummings could have though

[Rockets]

nxjen Wrote:

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> ?But then I realised it is a Tory govt and they

> aren't very smart so probably could not have

> cooked up such a devilish plan.?

>

> Dominic Cummings could have though

But he would have been caught in the act! ;-)

[exdulwicher]

Abe_froeman Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Thanks Ex Duwlicher, the first TFL document

> confirms the proposal came form TFL which the

> mayor is in charge of :

>

> "On 15 May, we also announced our

> proposal to increase the congestion

> charge from ?11.50 to ?15 daily, extend the

> hours of operations to include evenings

> (up to 10pm) and weekends, temporarily

> close the residents? discount to new

> applicants and make other consequential

> changes. "

>

> "Our" being TFL / the Mayor.

You're nitpicking in an effort to blame "the Mayor". It's literally in the document that the Government mandated TfL to maximise revenues (like removing fare freeze, removing free travel, reinstating congestion charge).

Yes, TfL decided to increase it at the same time but it was essentially an arm-twisting and it certainly wasn't "TfL" acting alone.

You can't blame SK for TfL going bankrupt in one sentence and then blame him for increasing CC in the next!

Given the pandemic and the crash in fare revenue, TfL would have gone bankrupt under any Mayor in the world. This is splitting hairs in much the same way as certain councillors are now attempting to twist the narrative around LTNs.

It comes to something when you have a Tory Council shouting on social media about LTNs being "imposed" on them - by a Tory Government. They are literally bidding for money from their own Government, doing what they're told and then, when it seems unpopular locally, they're backtracking and seeking to blame anyone else - that usually being TfL.

None of this is going to work if it splits into violently pro and anti and everyone spends their time nitpicking, shouting down, blaming, finger-pointing and basically trying to govern by populism. Sadly though, that's the way that politics has gone in the last 5 years or so - there's seemingly no desire to work together to address critical issues, it's a case of "them and us", you're either with us or against us.

Not a healthy place to be in, it generally doesn't work out as giving "holistic solutions" or well-implemented compromises, it ends up with each side shouting "WE'RE RIGHT, YOU'RE WRONG!" at each other.

[Spartacus]

No

You're wrong exdulwicher

Regardless of the topic 😂

[Rockets]

exdulwicher Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Abe_froeman Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Thanks Ex Duwlicher, the first TFL document

> > confirms the proposal came form TFL which the

> > mayor is in charge of :

> >

> > "On 15 May, we also announced our

> > proposal to increase the congestion

> > charge from ?11.50 to ?15 daily, extend the

> > hours of operations to include evenings

> > (up to 10pm) and weekends, temporarily

> > close the residents? discount to new

> > applicants and make other consequential

> > changes. "

> >

> > "Our" being TFL / the Mayor.

>

> You're nitpicking in an effort to blame "the

> Mayor". It's literally in the document that the

> Government mandated TfL to maximise revenues (like

> removing fare freeze, removing free travel,

> reinstating congestion charge).

>

> Yes, TfL decided to increase it at the same time

> but it was essentially an arm-twisting and it

> certainly wasn't "TfL" acting alone.

>

> You can't blame SK for TfL going bankrupt in one

> sentence and then blame him for increasing CC in

> the next!

> Given the pandemic and the crash in fare revenue,

> TfL would have gone bankrupt under any Mayor in

> the world. This is splitting hairs in much the

> same way as certain councillors are now attempting

> to twist the narrative around LTNs.

>

> It comes to something when you have a Tory Council

> shouting on social media about LTNs being

> "imposed" on them - by a Tory Government. They are

> literally bidding for money from their own

> Government, doing what they're told and then, when

> it seems unpopular locally, they're backtracking

> and seeking to blame anyone else - that usually

> being TfL.

>

> None of this is going to work if it splits into

> violently pro and anti and everyone spends their

> time nitpicking, shouting down, blaming,

> finger-pointing and basically trying to govern by

> populism. Sadly though, that's the way that

> politics has gone in the last 5 years or so -

> there's seemingly no desire to work together to

> address critical issues, it's a case of "them and

> us", you're either with us or against us.

>

> Not a healthy place to be in, it generally doesn't

> work out as giving "holistic solutions" or

> well-implemented compromises, it ends up with each

> side shouting "WE'RE RIGHT, YOU'RE WRONG!" at each

> other.

Ex - you're spot on. Politics has become so polarised that there is no longer any middle-ground and no-one can bring themselves to compromise. Prior to the election we were faced with the awful dilemma of voting for the far-left or the far-right and nothing in between. And this has filtered down to local politics as well. We can all but hope that Keir can wrestle power off the hard-left and bring Labour back towards the middle and force the Tories to come back towards the middle - if not we are all in for an even worse time.

But back to the subject of the thread:

Lordship Lane gridlocked from back beyond the library at the Plough all the way up to the Grove Tavern junction.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

Yes, traffic in this part of London is terrible, isn't it? Something ought to be done about it.

[Rockets]

Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote:

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> Yes, traffic in this part of London is terrible,

> isn't it? Something ought to be done about it.

Yes but traffic was nowhere near as bad on that section of road prior to the closures being put in.....but you know that already.

[Wil72]

Still no petition to stop the road closures in Dulwich?...

[Earl Aelfheah]

Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote:

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> Yes, traffic in this part of London is terrible,

> isn't it? Something ought to be done about it.

If we just allow cars to dominate every single street, The problem of road deaths, obesity, pollution and congestion will probably fix themselves.

[ab29]

Wil72 Wrote:

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> Still no petition to stop the road closures in

> Dulwich?...

Here it is:

http://chng.it/k62TTfZD2G

[Abe_froeman]

It is not not picking at all ex dulwicher.

The current mayor imposed the congestion charge decision. You cant possibky claim it was the tories because the Tory candidate or mayor says he will reverse it immediately if elected.

All these problems on the road are the fault of our mayor and our council.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

"Yes but traffic was nowhere near as bad on that section of road prior to the closures being put in.....but you know that already."

You're suggesting that traffic was heavy north sound on Lordship Lane between The Plough and the skate park at the Old Harvester because of an east/west closure on Dulwich Village?

[Rockets]

Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> "Yes but traffic was nowhere near as bad on that

> section of road prior to the closures being put

> in.....but you know that already."

>

> You're suggesting that traffic was heavy north

> sound on Lordship Lane between The Plough and the

> skate park at the Old Harvester because of an

> east/west closure on Dulwich Village?

Yes I am. It's logical. The DV junction was a key route east/west across Dulwich and it is now closed so traffic is being forced to take other routes. The delays southbound on Lordship Lane around the Grove Tavern is because of traffic queuing to turn right onto the A205 and I suspect much of that traffic would have used to have gone via the DV junction.

It was the issue we all kept flagging with these closures from the outset - they push traffic onto Lordship Lane, East Dulwich Grove and parts of the A205 and create congestion and increased pollution as a result.

At about 1.30pm this afternoon Lordship Lane going northbound was nose-to-tail from outside Moxons to the Goose Green roundabout. It cleared about an hour later - I was sitting in Signoria cafe watching it but I suspect it was being caused by the flow of traffic coming from the North Dulwich end of EDG trying to filter onto Lordship Lane - once again increased because of the closure of a key east/west route.

When they close Townley during rush-hour it will get worse again.

[Townleygreen]

Rockets, I think you mean Southbound at the Grove Tavern junction, towards F Hill.