LTN: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3

[Earl Aelfheah]

Surprisingly little traffic on EDG itself suggesting the phasing of these lights is not great. The rest of the Village remarkably quiet

[Earl Aelfheah]

Second hotspot - Lordship Lane heading south form the library, towards the South Circular. The South Circular itself was not 'that' busy considering it's rush hour. This bit of road has always been pretty chocker during rush hour, although I'm sure others will disagree.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Other than these two spots (bare in mind that this is rush hour), I saw very little evidence of the 'TRAFFIC CHAOS!!!' people have suggested.

My advice would be go and take a walk yourself. Both at rush hour and other times of day.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Also worth noting that Court Lane and Calton Avenue (previously both with a lot of standing traffic at rush hour) were unsurprisingly, empty.

[Spartacus]

So here is a conundrum

We have one group saying traffic is terrible

Another saying its fine

But what we don't have is official pre-implementation stats around the area and proper monitoring of the scheme both in the immediate vicinity and on roads effected by it.

Sadly Southwark didn't do the pre stats which means they can't show if the scheme is a success or not and what happens to the displaced traffic.

I think a lot of people on both sides would be happier if it had been implemented in a controlled way with the correct monitoring before, during and after implementing.

Without the correct monitoring and control Southwark only has hearsay on how successful it is as they can't show stats for the before situation taken over a controlled period of time (not just one busy week) nor will they have enough information to prove evaporation and not displacement. Without it people will always be miffed as a result and can challenge the methodology and results.

[Rockets]

Rahrahrah - enough with the photos!

You took at least 40 photos (your IMG numbers tell a tale) and shared a selection of them with us - what's to say you weren't a bit selective about which ones you shared - perhaps get them time-stamped as well next time as you could have been waiting for quiet moments or waited until the light phasing was in your favour ;-)

But please don't interpret that as a request to see all the others....;-)

We aren't imagining what we see.....and nothing you post on here is going to convince anyone about what is actually going on in reality.

I do have to say you have been remarkably skilled with your photos - the roads are so quiet it looks like Christmas Day there is so little traffic! If that is the case I am sure the council will be letting us all know what a tremendous success the closures have been pretty quickly.

[sally buying]

As I mentioned earlier it does not matter what Southwark do re monitoring if it does not meet what they want they will execute a tmo and start again as is the case with Champion Hill. From 18 months originally to now 36 months before they decide.

if you are under the impression that these trials are only for a temporary period see email regarding Champion Hill.

Which I suspect will be applied to all these works taking place.

"Thank you for your e-mail.

I note your query on the reason for retaining the ?No Entry? restriction on Champion Hill.

Given the challenges in establishing the full CW 17 route to meet TfL?s cycling quality criteria , we recognise that the Champion Hill trial still needs further time to be in place before we can fully assess its impact on the local road network. We have therefore used the powers granted to the council under the May 2020 TMO changes to carry out a further trial period before determining whether this change should be made permanent. The re-trial will be in place for a maximum of 18 months, after which a decision on the way forward will be made, taking into consideration feedback or comment received from the public and monitoring data.

Your comment will be considered carefully in determining the way forward after the trial period

Given the reduced use of public transport in the lockdown, and the anticipated low usage levels for many months, it is important that the council and other strategic transport bodies consider how people will move around the capital. If we are to avoid this shift resulting in increased levels of car use it is vital for those bodies to take steps to encourage a modal shift towards walking and cycling.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Take a walk yourself. Either there is back to back gridlocked traffic or there isn?t. I have been straight forward, I?m not putting time stamps on my photos, just get of your sofa and go have a look. There are two spots where traffic was heavy as described. The worst congestion is definitely heading south from the library. Whether this is worse than before or not people may disagree, but to my mind this was always a hotspot during rush hour.

[Earl Aelfheah]

@Rockets - I posted a few photos from each spot. I haven?t faked, edited or ?selected? to fit a narrative. At the end of the day you can?t take photos showing no cars where there is back to back gridlock. I know we?re in an era of alternative facts, but ultimately there is an objective, observable reality, whether it?s convenient or not.

[Bicknell]

i will take pictures next week @rahrahrah. But Townley Road nose to tail traffic at drop off and pickup. schools have warned parents of chaos.lets see what happnes next.

[Earl Aelfheah]

@bicknell - I have noticed an increase in traffic on Townley (I think I commented on this earlier in the thread). It was quiet at 5 today, but I accept that might not be the case at other times.

[Rockets]

rahrahrah Wrote:

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> Take a walk yourself. Either there is back to back

> gridlocked traffic or there isn?t. I have been

> straight forward, I?m not putting time stamps on

> my photos, just get of your sofa and go have a

> look. There are two spots where traffic was heavy

> as described. The worst congestion is definitely

> heading south from the library. Whether this is

> worse than before or not people may disagree, but

> to my mind this was always a hotspot during rush

> hour.

I was joking about the time-stamps.....;-)

But I did get off my sofa, as you so nicely put it, and ran through the village, saw the traffic, posted a comment and then you replied with a contradictory response as if you are desperate to prove there isn't an issue.....I remind you....

Rockets Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I believe some schools have gone back today and as

> I ran through Dulwich Village this morning at

> around 7.30am there was stationary traffic from

> the Village roundabout going northbound all the

> way to the East Dulwich Grove junction. The folly

> of these closures is there for us all to see and

> we know the council is going to try and close the

> village northbound to chase the displacement away

> from the area but these closures are not working

> and are creating far worse problems than before.

Rahrahrah: I ran through Dulwich Village this morning at 7:30. It was pretty quiet. So what's this mean?

[Rockets]

rahrahrah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> @Rockets - I posted a few photos from each spot. I

> haven?t faked, edited or ?selected? to fit a

> narrative. At the end of the day you can?t take

> photos showing no cars where there is back to back

> gridlock. I know we?re in an era of alternative

> facts, but ultimately there is an objective,

> observable reality, whether it?s convenient or

> not.

But you have selected spots that aren't the worst affected haven't you?

You do realise as well that this thread now becomes a Tony Hart gallery of gridlock or clear roads.....;-)

[Earl Aelfheah]

I always liked Tony Hart 😂

[Rockets]

Cue the music....;-)

[tiddles]

Trying to get to west dulwich station today at 5.45 lordship lane was backed from the harvester to the library. Unable to turn onto lordship lane we headed back down to townley road. This was backed up to The playing fields of Alleyne. The lights seemed strangely quick. Had to loop round to avoid the Herne hill chaos - he missed the train....

[Abe_froeman]

That's impossible tiddles. See photographic evidence above of there being no cars at all on any of the roads you mention

[slarti b]

rahrahrah Wrote:

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> Other than these two spots (bare in mind that this is rush hour), I saw very little evidence of the

> 'TRAFFIC CHAOS!!!' people have suggested.

Thanks for the photos, do you have a whole EDF page to yourself :-)

Anyway, is your conclusion

a) that traffic is so quiet that the council didn't need to put in the DV closure at all and there is no need for any further, phase 2 measures?

or

b) that the high traffic volumes are very much time limited (especially in the morning peak) so timed restirction would deal with the problem?

My own view is b. I have been cycling in to work a few times over the last few weeks and around 8.30 Dulwich Village is stationery with cars backed up from the EDG junction as they try to turn right. Not sure about teh afternoon peak, I normally come back quite a bit later.

So maybe we need just some kind of timed restriction 7.30 - 9.00 am? It still leaves the issue of where the displaced traffic will go to but, hey, the councillor's don't care so why should we.

[slarti b]

rahrahrah Wrote:

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> if you want to reduce pollution, you have to reduce the number of car journeys. It has been shown time and time >again that when you make it more difficult to use the car for short journeys, the number of journeys reduces.

But, during the OHS process the councillors claimed the problem was through traffic, not short journeys by local residents. This through traffic will just be displaced rather than evaporate.

>I would also like to see more investment in alternatives - public transport,

Agreed, but the councillors always dismiss this argument. It is much easier for them to close roads using undemocratic emergency powers based on misleading data, than working with TFL towards solving the real problem.

> The idea that there is a 'war on the motorist', or that Southwark want to 'punish people who drive' is absurd

Given the rehetoric from councillors and their supporters I disagree with you. The impression they are giving is that they want local residents to give up their cars and don't care about any inconvenience caused for local journeys.

If the councillors are not waging war on local motorists why do they refuse to consider permit schemes for local residents?

[slarti b]

Duplicate post!!!

[ED_moots]

To me this document states Southwark will use covid lockdown (which we're out of for now) to expedite plans to reduce car use by 50% in the Borough. Its a bold target, being executed poorly, and with little/no consultation of Southwark's constituents.

http://moderngov.southwarksites.com/documents/s89803/Report%20Streetspace%20Plan.pdf

So yes, a war on car use, certainly.

[first mate]

slarti b Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> rahrahrah Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------

>

> Anyway, is your conclusion

> a) that traffic is so quiet that the council

> didn't need to put in the DV closure at all and

> there is no need for any further, phase 2

> measures?

> or

> b) that the high traffic volumes are very much

> time limited (especially in the morning peak) so

> timed restirction would deal with the problem?

>

> My own view is b. I have been cycling in to work

> a few times over the last few weeks and around

> 8.30 Dulwich Village is stationery with cars

> backed up from the EDG junction as they try to

> turn right. Not sure about teh afternoon peak, I

> normally come back quite a bit later.

>

> So maybe we need just some kind of timed

> restriction 7.30 - 9.00 am? It still leaves the

> issue of where the displaced traffic will go to

> but, hey, the councillor's don't care so why

> should we.

This!

[heartblock]

8:00am ish today

[heartblock]

And the other way.... note cyclist overtaking standing traffic. Ok bored now. Lived here on East Dulwich Grove for 30 years. Voted for this Labour Council. No axe to grind except telling people how it is on my road.

[Rockets]

ED_moots Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> To me this document states Southwark will use

> covid lockdown (which we're out of for now) to

> expedite plans to reduce car use by 50% in the

> Borough. Its a bold target, being executed poorly,

> and with little/no consultation of Southwark's

> constituents.

>

> http://moderngov.southwarksites.com/documents/s898

> 03/Report%20Streetspace%20Plan.pdf

>

> So yes, a war on car use, certainly.

QUTOE:

Southwark?s Streetspace Plan advises that the council should aspire to maintain

50% less driving than before lockdown to meet our climate change commitment, to

maintain as many transport, health and environmental benefits as possible, and to

help create a modal shift to active modes.

The reality is that to reach their 50% target reduction they have to attack the areas where car ownership is highest in the borough. We have heard time and time again from both the council and the anti-car lobby that "only 40% of Southwark residents have access to a car" as if it is some sort of crime and something to be ashamed of. Of course, car ownership is driven by socio-economic factors but it is also driven by location and accessibility to transport and what those who tout the figure miss is that a very high percentage of the borough's residents live within walking distance of one of the 8 tube stations in the borough and have much better transport links than in Dulwich.

Is car ownership for this area really that high? Compare it to neighbouring Bromley or Croydon and you will see that it is in line. or lower, when compared with similar parts of suburban Greater London. People need cars in this part of the city.

For the last few years the council has been attacking the Dulwich area and its perceived high car ownership rates (attacking perceived wealth also sat well with the Labour party's hard-left leaning approach before the election). First they extended double-yellow lines to make it more difficult to park, then they forced through a CPZ and now they are blockading large swathes of the area to make it more difficult to get on with day-to-day life for those who need to use a car.

To get anywhere near a 50% reduction in car use things will have to get an awfully lot worse as the current closures may reduce car use by 10% (at an absolute maximum) given the lack of transport links in this part of London. The unfortunate consequence of this is that the lives of the residents across the area will be, in the main, negatively impacted by these changes whether they own a car or not, but we are all collateral damage in this game.