LTN: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3

[ed26]

Reposted from another thread by request...

The whole area is becoming a nightmare. I am all for some residential streets to be blocked off at one end or made one-way, as long as there are sensible through routes without making long detours. But it's the piecemeal way in which these measures have been implemented, without a cohesive strategy to improve the streets for everyone, including drivers, cyclists, public transport and residents.

It's impossible to follow your nose anywhere, and sat navs are always a few months behind, so I'm sure that the current layout leaves drivers aimlessly driving around residential streets.

I tried to drive across to Denmark Hill last week, coming out of my area at the Champion Hill lights. Then, there's no access via Champion Hill to Denmark Hill, so you can't go straight on. And it's a no right turn, so I had to turn left, head into Sainsburys, around the roundabout and back out in the direction I wanted to head. I guess there's a rat run through to Camberwell somewhere but I don't know it.

If you want to get from DKH way down to Crystal Palace Road, you can't turn right from East Dulwich Road into CPR, so you have to either do a u-turn in the garage / Tescos, or a big detour around The Gardens and streets around there. Or, if you're in the know, head down Ondine Road or the narrow bit of East Dulwich Road by the church, so you can go straight on into CPR.

Just adding layer upon layer of complexity doesn't improve the streets for anyone. The council should go back to the drawing board for the whole area and think about what they really want to achieve post Covid-19 rather than adding to the maze.

[Earl Aelfheah]

ed26 Wrote:

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> Just adding layer upon layer of complexity doesn't

> improve the streets for anyone. The council should

> go back to the drawing board for the whole area

> and think about what they really want to achieve

> post Covid-19 rather than adding to the maze.

I'm not sure any of the changes can really be said to be a response to COVID-19. If enabling businesses and workplaces to reopen whilst allowing for social distancing is the main priority, then we would be widening pavements along Lordship lane and creating segregated cycle lanes to connect into town. This can be done cheaply and quickly with cones and some temporary signs (as has happened in other boroughs).

[andrewc]

I think what the council are trying to do is to frustrate the car user so that they use the car less. Over time the frustration turns to acceptance but only after a period of irritation.

This is the case now when driving into town. Most of us have accepted that driving in to the centre is more hassle than its worth. It took a few years but in the end 'we' generally accept the change.

This is what is happening locally. A period of pain and irritation which will result in more of us driving less.

[Metallic]

heartblock Wrote:

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> My point was that....the now lovely quiet roads

> are all in wealthy areas....but we all need less

> pollution and less through traffic.

Displacement of traffic does not mean lovely quiet roads, wherever they are.It means one road wins and another loses.Just think it through for a second and realise a road will be absorbing extra traffic in order to protect another road. Now we can all look forward to Phase 2 apparently, when my road will lead to it presumably being blocked off by the library. So both ends rubbish.

[rollflick]

No it's not piecemeal, both Melbourne Grove and Carlton Avenue have been designated as cycle routes, that's a key part of the reason they've been prioritised, and rightly so.

There are six times more signs than legally required to sign the traffic order. Carlton Avenue could do with more advance signing though but that should happen as the scheme bids in. Google Maps does show Carlton as closed but not MG yet.

Just like the SUV driver who didn't "see" the signs, the planters or the people on the pavement she wanted to drive round ('Oh sorry it was a mistake'), so people on this thread don't see the need to cut out rat-running for these cycle routes to appeal to more people. Instead the keep moaning about how this is piecemeal and fail to provide any credible alternatives. Honestly.

[first mate]

I am sure you are right but the ?period of irritation? will only apply to those who were always able to do without a car. There are many, possibly more than might be thought, who do need to use a vehicle, especially under the current circumstances. For them these measures are ridiculously punitive and heavy-handed and yet the response by those pushing road closures is a shrug and suggestions along the lines that perhaps they should go and live somewhere else. Machiavellian, arrogant and paternalistic.

andrewc Wrote:

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> I think what the council are trying to do is to

> frustrate the car user so that they use the car

> less. Over time the frustration turns to

> acceptance but only after a period of irritation.

> This is the case now when driving into town. Most

> of us have accepted that driving in to the centre

> is more hassle than its worth. It took a few years

> but in the end 'we' generally accept the change.

> This is what is happening locally. A period of

> pain and irritation which will result in more of

> us driving less.

[Otto2]

Had a lovely cycle to the village via Melbourne/Townley/Calton. I am in the category of "some people can't cycle" in that I am severely asthmatic and have a knee issue. A larger number of people that you think can cycle - I learned from listening to Wheels for Wellbeing at a City Hall meeting that many people with mobility issues find cycling easier than driving. I ride an electric bike for the hills as I can't manage them on a regular bike, but, ride a normal bike when I'm taking a shorter ride on relatively flat ground. Cyclists and walkers should have equal enjoyment of roads and it makes sense to add some routes where the air is better to breathe and the traffic less frenzied. There is room for everyone -- adding some quiet streets is also great for the kids. I saw a large amount of families en route today, enjoying the easier-to-cycle-now roads. My road now has increased traffic (huge actually) due to the change, but, I think that will change over time when people get used to the changes and reroute.

[creditwheredue]

Are all residents of Court Lane, etc pleased about the blocking off of the junction. What was once a short hop to Herne Hill now involves either heading back to Lordship Lane then either using the South Circular and then back through the village or Croxted Road or heading down Lordship Lane from the Court Lane junction or via Eynella and then EDG?

EDIT:Just back from a dog walk and seen the closure for the first time, Court Lane residents can access EDG via one of the side streets Dekker, etc into Woodwarde then Calton/Townley

[Spartacus]

Whilst this is slightly out if the area, it has to be mentioned.

Rye lane will be closed to allow pedestrians to shop safely.

Buses will be diverted and not use Rye Lane.

Going to make shopping in Peckham hard for those that rely on buses to get there,including the elderly, disabled or those with children.

Most shops don't have rear access so restocking will also be difficult.

From past closures of Rye Lane, this will potentially have a massive negative impact on the businesses along its length.

Not sure Southwark have a joined up approach to this end of the borough or have consulted local businesses and residents about how their implementation of street closures in Dulwich and Peckham will impact them.

[spider69]

Is this because there was never any social distancing so decided to make it easier for the virus to spread?

Does anyone on Southwark Council have any idea on how the neighborhood is made up and how it works or have they let the

kids with red pens loose again.

[intexasatthe moment]

Spartacus thank you for heads up .

Terrible decision .Both for shoppers and the shops .

[James Barber]

Hi Spartacus,

Rye Lane is tricky. A number of years ago circa 2008 Lib Dem led council installed rising bollards to restrict Rye Lane to buses and service vehicles. WE had several years supply of replacement bollards as per the suppliers advice. All th replacement bollards were used up within a fortnight.

These days I would have thought CCTV enforcement sufficient to only allow buses. I don't think pedestrianisation will ensure a fully active Rye Lane or ultimately be safe. Fingers crossed I'm wrong.

[Spartacus]

Thanks James

If I remember correctly, the rising bollards were installed by the then Peckham Programme team (thankfully now disbanded) after their town centre manager went to see it in operation in Oxford.

The difference was Oxfordshire drivers respected the bollards that lowered to let buses through and the Peckham drivers believed they could drive over them by tailgating buses. Quite a few cars were wrecked if I remember correctly so a very expensive but badly thought through scheme failed and cost even more to remove a few years later.

You would hope that the transport team in the council would have learnt how not to waste our money by now but hey ho

Really don't understand why they just don't something like widen the pavements with passing points and loading bays built in then allow buses only and a limited permit managed no of delivery vehicles to traverse what would effectively by a single track road where buses pause in the passing bays to let each other pass. (A sort of extension of the scheme outside the section at the Aylsham centre)

Of course a scheme like this would need proper consultation but it could boost night time and restaurant economy by allowing tables to use the wider pavements outside core shopping hours

[Jim1234]

Hi, I've been following this thread with some interest and just wanted to throw a point into the mix.

I think we shouldn't forget that the reason these changes keep getting made is because someone is employed to propose and make road changes. Whoever this person at the council is will continue to make such changes so long as their job continues to exist. There will be many more pointless road adaptations in the future because it is someone's job to propose and implement them.

I think the best example is how recently the junction between Chesterfield Road and Melbourne Grove saw the pavements widened. Ultimately it was pointless, if perhaps a slight improvement, but without it happening this mythical person at Southwark Council would have had nothing to do.

[tiddles]

Wow that is an idiotic decision re rye lane. Hi is a very long stretch - have they actually looked at the costumers who shop there - LOADS arrive by bus - how the ***k are they going to get to the shops . And don?t get me started on getting to peckham rye station for commuting. Are you sure this is a real proposal?

James if this is real could you raise this ASAP?

[Wil72]

I just wanted to let everyone that lives in East Dulwich or surrounding area that you can add your 'thoughts' to the recent road closures on the Southwark website.

Link for the road closures through Dulwich Village is here- https://dulwichvillagestreetspace.commonplace.is/comments

Link for the road closure at Melbourne Grove is here- https://eastdulwichstreetspace.commonplace.is

Their unbelievable 'justification' for sneaking these disastruous road closures through whilst we are all in lockdown is here- https://www.southwark.gov.uk/transport-and-roads/improving-our-streets/live-projects/our-healthy-streets/our-healthy-streets-dulwich

Please do add as many comments as you can- you are not limited to 1 comment you can comment on all existing posts and add your own.

If these road closures are going to treble the amount of time that it takes you to get anywhere locally too (and treble the amount of pollution), please let the council know and share the links with as many people as you can.

Otherwise they will just leave the closures there...

Sadly we do not all have the luxury of being able to walk or cycle everywhere!

[first mate]

What an incredibly biased and unbalanced feedback document, already hailing the closures as a success. Aren?t the same architects and supporters advising detractors that they must wait months before we can possibly begin to measure how successful these interventions are?

How is the council getting away with such biased feedback documents?

Still nada on social distancing and the R is slowly creeping up.

If, as seems likely, we have another lockdown, no stats on traffic levels can possibly be used as evidence of road closure success.

[spider69]

tiddles Wrote:

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> Wow that is an idiotic decision re rye lane. Hi is

> a very long stretch - have they actually looked at

> the costumers who shop there - LOADS arrive by bus

> - how the ***k are they going to get to the shops

> . And don?t get me started on getting to peckham

> rye station for commuting. Are you sure this is a

> real proposal?

>

> James if this is real could you raise this ASAP?

Like most things from Southwark nobody is ever aware of what they are going to do until its done and chaos reigns apart that is from that small band of zealots that seem to want and get.

[Wil72]

Are the Council allowed to sneak these through before the published consultation dates? This all seems very sneaky and underhand, and has absolutely nothing to do with Covid.

Are there any Legal people out there that can advise?

[intexasatthe moment]

Wil72 - I'll carry on adding comments ,I hadn't realised that one could post more than once ,so thanks for highlighting that .

But ....I don't think any amount of comments will influence decisions made by Southwark .Allowing us to comment is just a diversion ,window dressing ,a con .

As I was memorably instructed at a public meeting re turning a school into an Academy

"This is a consultation ,not a rolling ballot .You can't just vote for what you want ."

[Effra]

Our Heathy Streets is FARCE.

The traffic along East Dulwich Grove is backing up like never before.. Static vehicles are pumping out pollution.

The only way to get the Council to change their minds is DIRECT ACTIOM.

The best locations for protest are:-

1. Lordship Lane junction with EDG

2. Dulwich Village junction with Red Post Hill.

Pedestrians can block these junctions very effectively by just crossing the road continuously or by lying down in the road.

Advance alerts to the media will bet them involved and provide widespread coverage.

A bit of positive action will make the Councillors review their crazy ideas.

To the barricades!!!

[Metallic]

Effra Wrote:

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> Our Heathy Streets is FARCE.

>

> The traffic along East Dulwich Grove is backing up

> like never before.. Static vehicles are pumping

> out pollution.

>

> The only way to get the Council to change their

> minds is DIRECT ACTIOM.

>

> The best locations for protest are:-

>

> 1. Lordship Lane junction with EDG

>

> 2. Dulwich Village junction with Red Post Hill.

>

> Pedestrians can block these junctions very

> effectively by just crossing the road continuously

> or by lying down in the road.

> Advance alerts to the media will bet them involved

> and provide widespread coverage.

>

> A bit of positive action will make the Councillors

> review their crazy ideas.

>

> To the barricades!!!

School traffic, what there was of it, will be over now and so we are entering the quiet period until the beginning of September. So expect the supporters to say ' look, no traffic - it has worked!' If you are really against these closures and want to demonstrate against them, take the time to plan them properly, get people to timetable when they will stand at junctions like EDG/Dulwich Village and Woodwarde Road/Calton Avenue and ask them to do a traffic census that you can use. OneDulwich surely has enough members to be able to do this? I think that residents of all the roads on Area B and C of OHS who do not support closures are at the moment just going to be so relieved the holidays are here, that they may forget to prepare for what will be a citizen's uprising. According to a friend of mine in Burbage Road, the Councillors are already deciding what the next road to close will be, so don't forget how you felt sitting in traffic jams of furious people seeing only three cars able to turn right in to EDG from Dulwich Village - just wait until the Foundation coaches join the party. My guess is that from my road, access will be closed at the top of it, where it turns in to Eynella Rd.

[womanofdulwich]

Lets make charter, Alleyns and jags walk or cycle to school only.😉

[Metallic]

womanofdulwich Wrote:

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> Lets make charter, Alleyns and jags walk or cycle

> to school only.😉

Let's see the coaches dumping kids off at the College.

[villager1d]

I'd go further. Ensure that kids who go to DVIS, the Hamlet, Judith Kerr and the Charters live within walking distance of the schools to prevent parents driving them and clogging up the Village