LTN: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3

[rupert james]

How about the people that live around Sainsbury's, the housing estate surrounding the supermarket, to suddenly find coaches turning up and depositing hundreds of school children that the residents around Dulwich do not want.

Shoppers who use the car park. Noise, and all associated things that are associated with school mass groups of children.

We dont want the coaches, let some one else have them. Seems like a usual response of this forum.

[alice]

I?ll have another look at that route. Doesn?t touch the car park.

[Abe_froeman]

That coach service is remarkable. Doesn't look like there is a single stop less than three miles away.

[hammerman]

I live a 5 minute walk away from Bessemer Grange Primary School and they put in place a Healthy Street thing a year or so ago to discourage parents from parking nearby. They also cut off streets for people who live in them and created a lot more traffic at drop off/pick up times with no enforcement from traffic wardens etc.

This has not stopped parents who live a 5 minute walk away from using their cars to drop off their children. I really feel for the children who are probably having lessons about the environment etc.

[mikeb]

@Abe, some work I did previously shows how far the coaches come to Dulwich. These are not "local" schools ...

https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/file.php?5,file=342720

[Metallic]

exdulwicher Wrote:

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> Hunts Slip Road is a private road owned by the

> Dulwich Estate. As most of Dulwich is likely to be

> closed off I reckon there could be a way of

> allowing coaches out at the railway bridge just

> like all the restrictions planned for Dulwich

> area. So allow coaches to get on from Alleyn Park

> and not cars - and then they could park all day.

> Stop all these people using it as a car park too.

>

> The railway bridge has a 7.5T weight limit and two

> width restrictions on it, it's also had one side

> built out precisely to avoid heavy vehicles using

> it. It got severely damaged many years ago by a

> truck hitting the sides.

>

> The coaches delivering to schools are 12T plus.

> Chances of coaches using / being allowed to use

> Hunts Slip Road is ZERO, it's not an idea that is

> even going to be entertained.

OK, then College Road. Or - shock horror - make them come on public transport apart from the younger ones who could have minibuses. I'm sick of having all the aggro outside my door - coaches, pollution and parents with one kid in their car whilst they do a drop off.

[Metallic]

wulfhound Wrote:

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> > An interesting idea which would considerably

> ease poolution and congestion through Dulwich

> Village. The other foundation schools could

> organise walking groups from there to Alleyns and

> JAGS.

>

>

> It's rather a long way on foot for kids who

> already have a very early start (no, mine don't go

> to any of those schools). I'm all in favour of

> active travel especially for children! But adding

> 30+ minutes walk each way for schools with an 8:30

> start, bearing in mind some of them will be on the

> coach for 45+ minutes before that, is a bit

> harsh.

>

> It might make more sense for coaches to drop off

> on Gallery Road near the roundabout, turn around

> and go back to the South Circular via College

> Road. That's equidistant from DC and JAGS, more or

> less, and a more reasonable distance to expect

> kids with school bags to walk at 8:15am on a dark

> January morning.

NO!!! That will make it worse for anyone who lives on College Road or Dulwich Village. The pick ups would be a complete no-no, this is a conservation area and not a coach park - you do know they park ALL DAY in Gallery Road already?

[exdulwicher]

@Metallic, you've misquoted me, I was replying to a previous comment.

College Road and Hunts Slip are both no-go for coaches. They can't turn round, they can't get out. We need to stop talking about that, it's just not an option.

Also, it's outside the zones being consulted on for the Healthy Streets. Why people are still suggesting it is beyond me.

[intexasatthe moment]

I guess they are thinking outside the box - that's allowed isn't it ?

Couldn't Dulwich College and the Estate do the decent thing and use some of the land bordering College Rd on the West to widen the road ,maybe make a turning point on the northern side of the entrance to Pond Cottages .Then the coaches can park there .

[Zig-Zag]

I know it's a bit outside East Dulwich area, but Southwark have made a total and pointless pig's ear of the junction between College Road and the South Circular.

For reasons I can't fathom, they have narrowed the area at the traffic light to single lane on College Rd. Only one car can get through at a time. If anyone is turning Right, cars wishing to go straight on, or left, are held in a huge queue. This is causing huge tailbacks at rush hour/school pick-up times and increased pollution. What was the purpose of this latest expensive messing around with junctions?

The money would have been better spent on a camera at the traffic-lights on the South Circ as cars are forever jumping the light on red (from Forest Hill side) and nearly mowing down pedestrians crsssing the South Circular at the pelican crossing slightly further down opposite Dulwich College.

[exdulwicher]

Zig-Zag Wrote:

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> I know it's a bit outside East Dulwich area, but

> Southwark have made a total and pointless pig's

> ear of the junction between College Road and the

> South Circular.

>

> For reasons I can't fathom, they have narrowed the

> area at the traffic light to single lane on

> College Rd. Only one car can get through at a

> time. If anyone is turning Right, cars wishing to

> go straight on, or left, are held in a huge queue.

> This is causing huge tailbacks at rush hour/school

> pick-up times and increased pollution. What was

> the purpose of this latest expensive messing

> around with junctions?

>

All the reasoning is here:

http://courtlane.info/2018/03/12/college-road-south-circular-junction-upgrade-consultation/

and

https://www.dulwichsociety.com/news/1800-temporary-closure-of-junction-of-college-road-north-and-south-circular

Somewhere, Dulwich College put in a related planning application connected with Alleyn Park, onsite parking - might be on Southwark Council's planning department pages.

The problem with a lot of the junction stuff (and the same with 20mph zones, one or two of the CPZ), is they've mostly been done in isolation rather than a combined area-wide plan. Its why the conversation focusing on the coaches is only part of the story - yes, they're an issue but so is the "regular" traffic and it all needs dealing with together.

Google Streetview shows the junction just after they did all that build-out work.

[slarti b]

EDBoy Wrote:

> Slarti, you definitely seem to have a bee in your bonnet about the private schools around here. I don't

> think the foundation schools are lecturing anyone.

EDBoy, If you lived in the Northern part of Area B, Townley, Beauval, Calton, Dovercourt or, like me, cycled through Dulwich Village most mornings, you would fully understand the impact of the local private schools. Last week, half term, was a welcome respite. It is not a " bee in the bonnet".

And if you dispute the effect of the private vs state schools, you need to experience the first week of autumn half term when state schools are still working; the reduction in traffic is significant.

Represntatives of the local private schools are very active in lecturing the local community in the changes they need to make without, it seems, accepting responsibility for the extra traffic and disruption they cause. Indeed, when the EDG\Townley junction was remodelled 4\5 years ago JAGS and Alleyns supported a scheme that would cause significant disruption to the lcoal community while refusing to engage with or discuss it with them. At the same time they have massively expanded, and continue to expand, their operations.

They are not the whole problem but are a significant part of it and should act accordingly.

[kr988]

Yes the village and surrounding roads do get impacted by the schools in the area and as private schools have children

Living further away than state schools it?s fair to say there maybe more traffic caused by them .However I think that many here benefit indirectly from them as well. I?m sure those on roads next to the playing fields prefer this view than some other development . Whose children here use the sports centre at Dulwuch College the fields on Gallery Road or the pool at Alleyns. Whose children have managed to get a place in a good state primary because places are not being taken up by children going private. Whose house price is protected because of the number of sort after schools near them.

This is a complicated debate with many factors for different families and simply saying ?we don?t want these coaches of young children on our road is slightly unfair when you maybe indirectly benefitting as well or saying one persons journey to get their child to school safely on time and then to work when there may not be a feasible alternative whereas I?m allowed to use my car for a journey I feel is essential is also hypocritical.

[seenbeen]

It's not just private school pupils that travel a distance to school in a car and clog the roads- as anyone who has travelled past Francesca Cabrini Catholic Primary in the morning or evening will testify!

[kr988]

No that?s very true .I was just stating that children from from private schools are more likely to live further away and the previous reply had been about their coaches clogging up the road. As someone previously pointed out more children live further away from their state school as well . Unless you work from home or are a stay at home parent or there is a station next to the school how do you get your primary school child to school on time safely and get to work on time in the morning ?

[first mate]

This is the dilemma. We all want healthier streets with less pollution but the demands of getting kids to school, looking after elderly or sick relatives and myriad ? essential? journeys weighted against increasingly crazy working hours and demands on time, mean car journeys may also be essential. It?s not people being lazy or indifferent. However, those on the more extreme end of council thinking will not be swayed or engage in the complexities. It is all black and white thinking and solutions. One of the S?wark cycling reps even suggested that unless you can cycle to work ( presumably that also involves school runs) then you had no business living round here and should move!

[exdulwicher]

first mate Wrote:

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> This is the dilemma. We all want healthier streets

> with less pollution but the demands of getting

> kids to school, looking after elderly or sick

> relatives and myriad ? essential? journeys

> weighted against increasingly crazy working hours

> and demands on time, mean car journeys may also be

> essential. It?s not people being lazy or

> indifferent. However, those on the more extreme

> end of council thinking will not be swayed or

> engage in the complexities. It is all black and

> white thinking and solutions. One of the S?wark

> cycling reps even suggested that unless you can

> cycle to work ( presumably that also involves

> school runs) then you had no business living round

> here and should move!

And so we return to the original point of the thread. People ARE both fundamentally lazy and creatures of habit - they will take the easiet option presented to them and do "what they've always done". Much of that is down to the infrastructure they're given.

If you provide every house with a driveway, lots of free parking everywhere and big roads, more people will drive.

If you provide lots of good quality cycle infrastructure, secure cycle parking and make it more difficult to use a car, more people will cycle

If you pedestrianise a high street, people will (obviously) walk.

So if Southwark can come up with an area-wide plan (rather than a street here, a junction there) that promotes walking and cycling and public transport and demotes car-driving then people will (eventually) gravitate towards the easier options.

The trick is making it equal to all. Not everyone can walk or cycle for every journey. Equally, not everyone can drive a car (or not everyone owns a car) for every journey. So if you promote mass car usage, you're depriving non drivers (or non car owners) of mobility. If you promote walking everywhere then you're obviously depriving people who need to drive (deliveries, people going long distance). There's a happy balance in the middle where the shorter journeys are predominantly done by active travel / public transport and the longer journeys mostly by public transport / car.

Years of "encouragement" and a few token efforts like painting a bit of cycle lane alongside an A-road and then wondering why cyclists don't use it have done nothing to move away from entrenched car use. Engineeer the environment to promote more sustainable travel and it happens.

[Rockets]

Can't agree more - progress will only be made when planning policies are cognisant of every road user and every catalyst for the challenges the area faces. Unfortunately the council doesn't see it this way and is focusing solely on the car and car users as the problem - (Lambeth tried the same with Loughborough and it backfired massively and cost the tax payer a fortune to fix the issues - but of course because Labour has a huge majority in Lambeth there was no accountability).

It is far more nuanced and complicated than that and Southwark's heavy-handed approach ultimately benefits no-one (except for maybe the vocal few on a few streets who now benefit from the council's plans).

I did laugh when a poster wrote on here that they were fed-up with coaches and cars dropping kids off around the Townley Road area and will be glad when they are gone - therein lies the issue - there is so little empathy for anyone else's life nowadays: as long as you are alright Jack then everything is good - sod everyone else! We saw it with the CPZ and the vocal few who were championed by the council and used as nothing more than a trojan horse to get the plans through.

The council's approach to planning is lazy and motivated by political views that the car is evil (and a healthy dose of wealth and car ownership is evil too) and they will love the fact (if they even bother reading what people in the area actually think anymore) the debate on here turned into one about the private schools rather than the fact that they are trying to close off a huge part of our local community to through traffic that will cause huge issues elsewhere.

I am saddened when I read things like Cllr McCash's musings on private schools where an elected official can only see the world through his own politically motivated eyes and everything is black and white, good versus evil and there can never be anything more balanced or pragmatic. When you start to review all of the local council's decisions through that looking glass you then start to see what is going on here....."leafy" Dulwich is a bit of an irritation to them.....

[Earl Aelfheah]

^this ... edtied to say, not that, the one above it ;-)

[EPB]

What oft was thought, but ne?er so well express?d

[JEG1]

slarti b Wrote:

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> EDBoy Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> I moved in 30 years ago, partly for the local

> schools which, at that time, were smaller and had

> many local pupils. Since then they have have

> expanded massively and, in the case of the

> foundation schools vastly increased their

> catchment areas and the proportion of parents

> driving their kids to school. Even now Alleyns

> want to expand their lower school further.

>

> At the same time as increasing

> pollution,congestion and stress on local streets,

> the foundation schools presume to lecture us on

> measures we locals residents should take. Total

> hypocrisy.

If you moved here 30 years ago for the local schools, then you will remember that the local state schools, Kingsdale and William Penn were 'failing' and massively undersubscribed. None of the Dulwich parents seemed to want to send their children there. Kingsdale closed down for a while, as did William Penn, which reopened as Dulwich High, which didn't do any better. As a result, a lot of the local children from the Hamlet went to Alleyn's, JAGS or DC. The fees were a lot more affordable in those days and the Assisted place scheme was also on offer for less well-off families. The Foundation schools were a lot less competitive than they are today. In addition, we didn't have the schools shortage crisis 30 years ago that we have today because of the rising population. It's a very different situation. Today, the area thankfully has Ofsted 'outstanding' state schools, and everyone is fighting to get into them, paying a fortune to buy or rent houses within their catchment areas. Therefore, fewer of the local children are applying to the local private schools. And of course there are more cars on the road than there were 30 years ago. The dire 37 bus service hasn't changed though!

[kr988]

And it?s likely to get worse with more traffic backed up on East Dulwich Grove if Townley and Carlton are blocked off to traffic. Sure this will make cycling more dangerous and bus travel more difficult on EDG. I don?t see the logic ?

[handh]

Just skimmed the evidence pack which is worth a read. The volume of traffic going through the area at school open and closing times is truly shocking. Are we poisoning our kids? It feels that way.

So I'm ready to support the timed "School Street" restrictions on Dulwich Village and Townley Road.

Not so sure about the permanent closure on Calton Avenue and Court Lane when a timed restriction might be enough, that feels like it's a different issue and I'd like to understand the case better.

It's difficult and there are risks. But as I walk from East Dulwich Grove down through the Village and see traffic backed up in all directions at every junction, doing nothing just doesn't feel like an option.

[rupert james]

One of the reasons that EDG is backed up is because they closed Champion Hill.

[Rockets]

Exactly....the traffic will go somewhere it always does...anyone noticed how the traffic is particularly bad today? It's because there are a load of roadworks that have been thrown up as the council spend their remaining FY19 budget before year end and everyone is trying to find a route around the worst of it. That's our world if these plans go ahead.

When I look at the plan I wonder how anyone coming from Brixton area is supposed to get across to the upper part of Lordship Lane - they may normally use Townley or Court Lane. Would they then be expected to drive along EDG, turn left onto Lordship Lane, then around the Goose Green roundabout and back along Lordship Lane?

Yes something has to be done but closing a large chunk of the borough to through traffic is not the answer - it will make matters a lot worse for anyone outside of that one area.