LTN: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3

[exdulwicher]

seenbeen Wrote:

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> intexasatthe moment Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Woodwarde thank you for that . I'm embarassed

> to

> > say that I haven't looked at all the

> documentation

> > on line ,I find maps hard to read .Is there a

> > proposal to restrict motor traffic on Eynella ?

>

> From what I saw they are going to almost pave over

> the top of Eynella by the library so that only

> cyclists and pedestrians have access. It's a bit

> of a worry because the cyclists around here are

> reckless in my experience and they are silent....

From the consultation document:

https://consultations.southwark.gov.uk/environment-leisure/our-healthy-streets-dulwich-phase-3/

We are proposing a closure at the junction of Eynella Road and Lordship Lane. This will simplify the junction, make it easier for pedestrians and cyclists to get across and create a new public space (see artist's impression of how this might look)

And then there's a pretty picture underneath of some artwork and seating outside the library, wider pavement space and a segregated lane for cyclists and various bollards to stop vehicle traffic.

Re the reckless cyclists comment - if you provide DECENT proper segregated infrastructure (ie not a bit of paint along a pavement that stops in the middle of nowhere) then people will use it properly and the behaviour will be more predictable. Same for pedestrians actually - if you have a set of pedestrian lights with unreasonably long wait times, people will start running across the road in gaps in the traffic which becomes unpredictable and reckless.

People behave according to the infrastructure they're given.

[alice]

Re Eynella blockage. The natural place for cyclists on that route to cross lordship lane would be up Barry till Goodrich then crossing over to milo road. A bike crossing here would be of benefit to all. It would have the benefit of slowing traffic speeding up the lordship lane ?hill?. The route would be faster for cyclists and would therefore decongest eynella/Barry and be far more cost effective.

It?s true the library gardens could be updated and made more welcoming somehow - its a big space and doesn?t need to extend into the road.

[Robert_F]

It really is amazing that after spending a load of money digging up and rebuilding the Calton Avenue / Court Lane junction for months, they are now planning on spending a load more digging it all up and rebuilding it again. Regardless of the benefits or not, what a total waste of tax-payer money.

[creditwheredue]

Lovely driving around the area today without the school coaches snarling up the roads.

[katesonic]

School coach beats a hummer in my book...

[slarti b]

exdulwicher Wrote:

> You don't need to ask people. It's a mix of ANPR/ CCTV data and modelling.

Can you tell me where the council statistics come from them? As far as I can seem they don't give their source.

Neither do they give their source for teh claims that traffic at teh DV junction has "doubled" or even significantly increased in the last couple of years.

[slarti b]

exdulwicher Wrote:

> You don't need to ask people. It's a mix of ANPR/ CCTV data and modelling.

Can you tell me where the council statistics come from? As far as I can seem they don't give their source.

Neither do they give their source for teh claims that traffic at teh DV junction has "doubled" or even significantly increased in the last couple of years.

[srisky]

The traffic is clearly not just due to the local private schools - rush hour traffic is significantly reduced this week and there is plenty of seating on the train, not just in Dulwich but generally.

[exdulwicher]

slarti b Wrote:

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> exdulwicher Wrote:

>

> > You don't need to ask people. It's a mix of

> ANPR/ CCTV data and modelling.

>

> Can you tell me where the council statistics come

> from? As far as I can seem they don't give their

> source.

>

> Neither do they give their source for teh claims

> that traffic at teh DV junction has "doubled" or

> even significantly increased in the last couple of

> years.

You're mixing data and statistics.

Data are individual pieces of factual information recorded and used for the purpose of analysis. It is the raw information from which statistics are created. Statistics are the results of data analysis - its interpretation and presentation.

So the council statistics come from their analysis of whatever data they have. I gave you some sources of that data in my previous post but to find out exactly what Southwark Council have used, you'd have to ask them (and / or TfL if they're helping with the modelling). Southwark's FOI information is here:

https://www.southwark.gov.uk/council-and-democracy/freedom-of-information-and-data-protection/freedom-of-information-requests?chapter=2

srisky wrote:

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> The traffic is clearly not just due to the local private schools - rush hour traffic is significantly reduced this

> week and there is plenty of seating on the train, not just in Dulwich but generally.

Parents take time off from work as well, families go on holiday.

Interesting little trial - take a bus (37 is a good one to showcase this from say Herne Hill to Goose Green) at normal school start/finish time. Past ND station, along EDG past JAGS and the Townley Road turn and time that journey. Then try the same journey at the same time when schools are in and there's coaches everywhere, all the traffic from parents dropping kids at Allyens, JAGS and heading into Dulwich Hamlet.

That then highlights the frustration with public transport and buses stuck in congestion - you end up pushing people towards their cars becasue the bus is unreliable - it's unreliable becasue it's stuck in traffic and so the vicious cycle of more congestion continues. You're right though, Townley Road is lovely without the constant throbbing din of coach engines!

[sally buying]

You live on Townley Road

[EDBoy]

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exdulwicher Wrote:

> Parents take time off from work as well, families

> go on holiday.

>

> Interesting little trial - take a bus (37 is a

> good one to showcase this from say Herne Hill to

> Goose Green) at normal school start/finish time.

> Past ND station, along EDG past JAGS and the

> Townley Road turn and time that journey. Then try

> the same journey at the same time when schools are

> in and there's coaches everywhere, all the traffic

> from parents dropping kids at Allyens, JAGS and

> heading into Dulwich Hamlet.

>

> That then highlights the frustration with public

> transport and buses stuck in congestion - you end

> up pushing people towards their cars becasue the

> bus is unreliable - it's unreliable becasue it's

> stuck in traffic and so the vicious cycle of more

> congestion continues. You're right though, Townley

> Road is lovely without the constant throbbing din

> of coach engines!

This is the unique issue with Dulwich. As Dr Ian Mudway said at a recent presentation, there are approximately 18-20 schools in about a one mile square area. The 37 bus actually skirts around 8 schools between Goose Green and Herne Hill, not just 3. By having a school term, morning/evening timed closure of Townley Road, it would allow the coaches for both JAGS & Alleyns to park on that road, keeping EDG clear and allowing the pupils to disembark safely. They should think about extending that closure to Calton Ave as well. Are Dulwich Estate involved in any of this Healthy Street dialogue, bearing in mind they are the largest landowner in the area?

[alice]

There is plenty of land in front of the school for safe parking. The obvious solution again ignored.

[EDBoy]

Excuse me Alice, what's the obvious solution?

[alice]

Sorry I mean use that space for the safe parking of coaches.

[slarti b]

EDBoy Wrote:

> By having a school term, morning/evening timed closure of Townley Road, it would allow the

> coaches for both JAGS & Alleyns to park on that road, keeping EDG clear and allowing the pupils to

> disembark safely.

So you are effectively suggesting that JAGS and Alleyns annex Townley Road and use it as their private coach parking area? Perhaps they should have thought of the consequences before building on their own parking areas as part of their huge expansion over the last couple of decades.

And remember that Alleyns are trying to expand even further, bringing in yet more pupils from all over London.

[Metallic]

I just wish all coaches offloaded at Dulwich College and then use Hunts Slip Road for a coach park if the drivers can't be bothered to go back to their depots. Freeing every road up from at least one huge chunk of pollution.

[EDBoy]

slarti b Wrote:

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> So you are effectively suggesting that JAGS and

> Alleyns annex Townley Road and use it as their

> private coach parking area? Perhaps they should

> have thought of the consequences before building

> on their own parking areas as part of their huge

> expansion over the last couple of decades.

>

> And remember that Alleyns are trying to expand

> even further, bringing in yet more pupils from all

> over London.

No Slarti, I am not suggesting that JAGS & Alleyns annex Townley Road. But, you could kill two birds with one stone and reduce the rush hour through traffic that uses this road as a short cut, whilst making sure that all the coaches in one place. I thought the idea of Healthy Streets was to reduce traffic that uses Dulwich as a short cut? There are no houses where the coaches would be parked, their engines would be turned-off and timed closures supervised by the school. If that was extended to Calton Ave, it would make that whole area safe for school children to walk. Alice, there is only enough room for about 3 or 4 coaches and there would be a problem with either entry or exit, unless the grass, shrubs and tress were replaced with tarmac, which seems at odds with the goal of Healthy Streets. Metallic's idea of using Hunts Slip Road as actually quite good and might be worth investigating.

I still don't understand the antipathy towards the God's Gift schools. All the schools in this area, at some point, try to get more pupils attending. If you moved into this area, you did so knowing there is a high density of public and private schools. I'm not saying that all the ideas in Phase 3 are good, but this one appears to be worth exploring.

[geh]

Good job I only left an hour and a half to get to Euston this morning. Bus stop closed, that?s ok walk to the next one. 37 came to be greeted by the driver, this bus ain?t going nowhere, and shut the doors! Uber ordered, bus departs (!) Uber to Brixton and then 15 mins to get into the station because of escalator works. Joined up coordinated public transport network it is not.

[exdulwicher]

EDBoy Wrote:

> Metallic's idea of using

> Hunts Slip Road as actually quite good and might

> be worth investigating.

>

Hunt's Slip is too narrow because of the double parking (Dulwich College 6th formers...) and there's also a width restriction just before the railway bridge so it's a cul-de-sac for coaches. There's not enough room to 3-point turn them there. The pavements were widened a while ago - it used to be a right racetrack that road cos it was so wide and straight.

Google Streetview

[first mate]

Why on earth are 6th formers being allowed to drive to school? Surely they should be using public transport/ cycling/ walking?

[goldilocks]

Fundamentally for the same reason parents drive their kids to school. Because its more convenient than the alternatives and an option that's available.

There are two options to stop it - 1 relies on the school encouraging students not to drive and for parents and students to rank this encouragement higher than their will to drive.

2 relies on making it less feasible, via preventing through traffic or adding controlled parking preventing non residents from leaving cars in an area long term.

[first mate]

If private schools are wanting to use local,residential streets as dedicated coach parking I'd have thought the very least they can do is discourage pupils from driving in to school (pupils creating more congestion and pollution)? For local residents to be told they must not drive or access roads in order to protect the lungs of children (who may also be driven to school by their parents) it is bordering on offensive to discover that school children are also driving themselves into school- presumably they are driving because they live out of Southwark?

[srisky]

goldilocks Wrote:

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> Fundamentally for the same reason parents drive

> their kids to school. Because its more convenient

> than the alternatives and an option that's

> available.

>

> There are two options to stop it - 1 relies on the

> school encouraging students not to drive and for

> parents and students to rank this encouragement

> higher than their will to drive.

>

> 2 relies on making it less feasible, via

> preventing through traffic or adding controlled

> parking preventing non residents from leaving cars

> in an area long term.

I would also add: (3) improve public transport.

It is not just private school parents, it's also state school parents - you see increased traffic around Heber, Goodrich

[srisky]

posted too soon

...etc and the general reduction in traffic during school holdiays across the board shows it's not just restricted to the private schools.

Either all parents and children are lazy or the majority are just trying to manage the school run and commute in the most efficient way possible, although not the most environmentally friendly. Some are just lazy.

Of course, there is a large concentration of schools in under a square mile in Dulwich, which compounds the problem.

There needs to be a lot of secure bike storage facilities at Herne Hill and North Dulwich to encourage public transport use,

perhaps a "walking bus" to take pupils from schools to stations,

better police/community officer visibility to encourage parents to allow children to walk without the fear of muggings.

I don't know where the funding for all this will come from, though.

[Abe_froeman]

I would imagine that very few Dulwich College kids parking in Hunts Slip rd have anything at all to do with congestion in Court Lane, Eyennella Road, Townly Rd, Calton Ave etc.