Brexit has Officially become UK Law

[bsand]

Why don't you sod off to some backward Brexit voting part of the country? This is EAST DULWICH for FFS, not some gammon loving backwater. We eat artisanal smoke-cured Iberian chorizo when we aren't considering going vegan.

[TheCat]

FreyaMikaelson Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Grove boy Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > See, you're still frothing, So much harm? you

> > sound like you've been brainwashed.

>

>

> That's because they are brainwashed.

>

> If they seriously wanted to hear what leavers have

> to say; what they think and want, they would have

> turned up to Q&A events, held by

> leavers/conservatives. Turning Point UK for

> example, anyone? Didn't think so. Would have loved

> to see those smug expressions wiped off of your

> faces in a real debate... y'know, instead of

> attacking DulwichFox? I mean... low blow.

>

> Cat, your posts have been a breath of fresh air on

> this toxic thread. EDF needs more of you... less

> of this filtdow

Very kind. Thanks.

I've been berated on this thread for not engaging on points around the actual debate we should be having. To be fair...in more recent times, that's true. I have purposefully avoided actually debating the issues, preferring to focus on highlighting the lack of decorum and respect by various posters. What's the point in saying what one thinks in good faith when some poster are just hovering over their keyboards salivating at the idea of tearing apart what is said rather than taking a balanced view (case in point - the disgraceful pedantic responses to Dulwich Fox on this thread, basically accusing him of being a racist despite him clearly saying he deplores racism and supports attempts to stamp it out - but then trying to twist his words to make him look silly).

I'm sure this will prompt a 'Go on then, explain it to me' type response. But the truth is that these people don't WANT to have a differing perspective explained to them. They just want to tear people down for going against their narrative. Hence my comment that 'name me ONE good thing about brexit' is actually a negative comment which exposes the posters bias - IF you TRULY can't name just ONE potentially positive outcome about such a massive, complicated issue. Then the truth is that you just don't WANT to know. There are numerous articles and studies on line (not all written by frothing brexiteers) which lay out reasonable potential advantages.But it's much easier to just call us all stupid and ill-informed than actually open your mind a little.

On the various brexit threads on this forum over the past 3 years I have set out (in detail) why I voted Leave, I have cited differing priroties and differing levels of risk tolerance for short term economic pain for longer term benefits as I see them (Go on then...go and check my post history). But I see very little point in continuing to do so on this forum until the dominant tone moves away from a pedantic need to tear down anyone who might dare to think that Leaving the EU is something that could work (Note, I didn't say that it 100 percent will be a land of milk, honey and unicorns - in fact it's not really leavers that say this sort of thing, it's mostly the usual suspects who hate the idea of leaving that project such ideas on to others, to build their strawmen).

Even the Guardian yesterday published 2 op ed articles (one by its senior economics editor) outlining the possible positive aspects of how economic reform could take place in Britain post-brexit. But the most vocal posters on here just don't want to hear it. And to be fair to them, a couple have basically said as much, suggesting that they have no wish to agree to disagree and no desire to 'be reasonable'. Fair enough, but if that's the case then I'll continue to fight that battle (I.e. A desire for reasonablness) before even attempting to enagage on the actual issues on this forum.

3, 2, 1.....cue responsive bile mocking how 'utterly clueless' (or some variation of that) my comments are.......

[stepdown]

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Very kind. Thanks.

So, you've found a post that you feel able to respond to.

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I've been berated on this thread for not engaging

> on points around the actual debate we should be

> having. To be fair...in more recent times, that's

> true. I have purposefully avoided actually

> debating the issues, preferring to focus on

> highlighting the lack of decorum and respect by

> various posters. What's the point in saying what

> one thinks in good faith when some poster are just

> hovering over their keyboards salivating at the

> idea of tearing apart what is said rather than

> taking a balanced view

And you admit you're not arguing in good faith...

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> (case in point - the

> disgraceful pedantic responses to Dulwich Fox on

> this thread, basically accusing him of being a

> racist despite him clearly saying he deplores

> racism and supports attempts to stamp it out - but

> then trying to twist his words to make him look

> silly).

Nobody in this thread called him racist, nobody had to twist his words to make them look silly.

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm sure this will prompt a 'Go on then, explain

> it to me' type response. But the truth is that

> these people don't WANT to have a differing

> perspective explained to them. They just want to

> tear people down for going against their

> narrative. Hence my comment that 'name me ONE good

> thing about brexit' is actually a negative comment

> which exposes the posters bias - IF you TRULY

> can't name just ONE potentially positive outcome

> about such a massive, complicated issue. Then the

> truth is that you just don't WANT to know. There

> are numerous articles and studies on line (not all

> written by frothing brexiteers) which lay out

> reasonable potential advantages.But it's much

> easier to just call us all stupid and ill-informed

> than actually open your mind a little.

>

> On the various brexit threads on this forum over

> the past 3 years I have set out (in detail) why I

> voted Leave, I have cited differing priroties and

> differing levels of risk tolerance for short term

> economic pain for longer term benefits as I see

> them (Go on then...go and check my post history).

> But I see very little point in continuing to do so

> on this forum until the dominant tone moves away

> from a pedantic need to tear down anyone who might

> dare to think that Leaving the EU is something

> that could work (Note, I didn't say that it 100

> percent will be a land of milk, honey and unicorns

> - in fact it's not really leavers that say this

> sort of thing, it's mostly the usual suspects who

> hate the idea of leaving that project such ideas

> on to others, to build their strawmen).

Then, with no sense of irony you build a straw man to argue against before immediately accusing others of doing so. Nobody has accused you of being stupid, despite your inane arguments.

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Even the Guardian yesterday published 2 op ed

> articles (one by its senior economics editor)

> outlining the possible positive aspects of how

> economic reform could take place in Britain

> post-brexit. But the most vocal posters on here

> just don't want to hear it. And to be fair to

> them, a couple have basically said as much,

> suggesting that they have no wish to agree to

> disagree and no desire to 'be reasonable'. Fair

> enough, but if that's the case then I'll continue

> to fight that battle (I.e. A desire for

> reasonablness) before even attempting to enagage

> on the actual issues on this forum.

>

> 3, 2, 1.....cue responsive bile mocking how

> 'utterly clueless' (or some variation of that) my

> comments are.......

...and there is nothing in here that relates to the discussion either, it just sets up another straw man against "vocal posters". It is not "conductive" as you say, whatever that means, and deserves to be mocked.

[stepdown]

FreyaMikaelson Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Would have loved

> to see those smug expressions wiped off of your

> faces in a real debate...

Feel free to provide one.

FreyaMikaelson Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> y'know, instead of

> attacking DulwichFox? I mean... low blow.

We can only play the hand we're dealt.

[TheCat]

Stepdown - Thankyou for irrefutablly (and unfortunately very predictably) proving my entire point.....

Best of luck to you.

[exdulwicher]

FreyaMikaelson Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> You've* got issues. That's rich. But if I have any

> issues it's with angry little delusional leftists

> like you trying to destroy a country you're not

> being forced to live in. If you love the EU so

> much, what are you doing here on the ED forums

> raging at those who don't want to be controlled by

> a foreign country? If you want to be controlled by

> Brussels, go live in Brussels, or any other

> country abiding by their laws, or suck it up and

> get over it.

Something to do with you removing my rights to freedom of movement...

[Seabag]

Let?s put leave and remain voters to one side for a moment, and consider what we collectively no longer have.

Freedom of movement and travel, ease of trade Europe, a greatly reduced status in Europe and the world (I don?t think once on my business travels in Europe or abroad in general, have I had someone say ?well done to the U.K? or anything like that. People are puzzled or curious, but often in a ?why would you do that?? kind of way. But it?s not that I feel we?re disliked, there?s a great fondness for us as a country, a people, but people do seem saddened by the whole thing.

I find myself making excuses and explaining how I personally voted, rather than feeling I can or want to stand up for the country collectively. We?re viewed as odd now, like we?ve taken leave of our senses. And Johnson and Trump are lumped together in the same conversation, the same disregard, and with the same distain often. I meet Americans who often are embarrassed by their leader, and apologies. Sadly I?m finding myself doing the same thing. I don?t like it.

The cost of the years of EU membership has in effect doubled, given the costs to us as a country since the 2016 vote. So arguments around economic benefits are diluted, it?s damaging our economy, devaluation and QE continue. And I wonder what freedom to make our own laws really means, because one EU law will be replaced with another law, it?s not as if we?re going to have a more lawless system. If we think faceless unelected Eurocrats are going to be out of our lives, then watch out for our very own home grown versions, I doubt there?ll be any less governing, whoever gets to do it.

I?m wary too of putting faith in people who have knowingly and blatantly manipulated, twisted and turned the truth for their own ends, only to be expected to take what they offer as the vision of the future as good. A group of people who call themselves ?The People?s Government? but who are jarringly less like ?the people? they claim to represent. If getting rid of being run by the ?elite? was part of this exercise, then it?s failed, as this group who now run the country and are making moves on our futures, armed with our supposed ?mandate for change? are themselves the ?elite? hidden in plain view.

So of what the future holds? We don?t know, but truth vs spin and economic use, or distortion of facts will continue to cause unease, continue the suspicion, continue to divide and corrode society. It has through history been so, and runs through America right now. Look at the corruption of the senate, the bulldozing of the event around the impeachment trial of DT. Through the lens of history it?ll be seen as pivotal. But in the here and now, it castrates the value of truth, over the will of the people that hold that power. The will to turn a blind eye, to wilfully hide the truth, to extract a desire for power, and wield that power for their own good, their own ends.

A society that cautions, mindfully holds a mirror to that, else we?re shadowed and fanned by such behaviour, is what I think we hope for. But that takes faith in it?s leaders, and that faith for a great many is lacking.

[stepdown]

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Stepdown - Thankyou for irrefutablly (and

> unfortunately very predictably) proving my entire

> point.....

>

> Best of luck to you.

In the interests of "decorum and respect", thank you for the compliment of my post being irrefutable and for making such a concise post after admitting that you "purposefully avoided actually debating the issues".

Best of luck to you too.

[hpsaucey]

'exdulwicher Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> FreyaMikaelson Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > You've* got issues. That's rich. But if I have

> any

> > issues it's with angry little delusional

> leftists

> > like you trying to destroy a country you're not

> > being forced to live in. If you love the EU so

> > much, what are you doing here on the ED forums

> > raging at those who don't want to be controlled

> by

> > a foreign country? If you want to be controlled

> by

> > Brussels, go live in Brussels, or any other

> > country abiding by their laws, or suck it up

> and

> > get over it.

>

exdulwicher Wrote:Something to do with you removing my rights to

freedom of movement...'

touch?!!

[JohnL]

It's pointless talking about balance over Europe. I'm more or less a globalist and am not going to change my point of view ever - it's something you're born believing.

This won't end as there will be calls to return in a generation or less.

[Sephiroth]

There was a reason Britain joined and that reason has if anything, intensified

So this leaving business will cause a lot of problems, to be sorted out later after we rejoin

Well done everyone

[Blah Blah]

Agreed. As the true consequences of leaving become apparent, it will only be a question of time before the calls grow to reverse something.

In many ways, nothing will change. Immigration is mostly driven by economic drivers. That won't change. We are still signed up to various UN conventions that legislate on all sorts of things from refugees to human rights. That won't change. We are still a part of NATO. That won't change. We are still subject to the European Court of Human Rights because we are still a member of the Council of Europe. That won't change. And we still remain part of the European Broadcasting Union and will still be major contributors to Eurovision! That won't change either.

So what will change? We will adopt many existing directives into UK law but the things that big business sees as a barrier to increased profits are what are most at risk. That means workers protections (paid maternity leave is already rumoured to be going). It might mean lowering food standards. It definitely means giving full control to the very people who are really responsible for the type of economy we have, those that we elect into government (Welsh farmers will be ?120 million worse off under the government funding announced to replace EU subsidies). Poorer regions that benefited from EU funding will see a shortfall also and indeed, Javid has already told all government departments that they need to make cuts of 5% to their budgets. So much for the end to austerity and a return to investment.

The truth is that Brexit is and always was ideological. The victory for Brexiters is a symbolic one. The reality is and always has been in the detail that no-one wants to discuss. That reality is going to become very apparent during the transition period as the nuts and bolts of trade finally come into the spotlight. We are no longer a big player and negotiating trade agreements with big players is always complicated and requires concession and regulatory alignment. The very thing that Brexiters say we left the EU to escape.

On immigration, we will still import the skills and labour that we need. Yes the process will be different in part but the end result will be the same. Only now, we have a nation where racists, xenophobes and other bigots feel emboldened. Hate crime is up and I am ashamed that the UK has gone backwards in this respect. But at the same time, I feel confident that a more outward looking part of the population will bring us back to a place of sanity in time.

Brexit is a con trick, played by wealthy people acting out of self interest. It is only a question of when, not if, those who voted for it, finally see that.

[citylover]

Well, I am just thrilled to now have a vote that counts instead of just a vote. The latter is of no value as demonstrated Remain voters calling it'advisory'. The best thing about the referendum is the exposing of our demicracy as a sham, A democratic system that's largely based on a presumption that we are still a cohesive society operating on good faith and respect for tradition and unwritten rules can't work where we have ruthless people with an agenda who do not respect any of those things and think nothing of exploiting any areas which aren't clearly defined, twisting meanings and manipulating the law and parliamentary process. In that sense Brexit has only won the first battle but at least it's a start. As for hate crime mentioned above, for sure it's increased a thousand fold, I have never in my life seen such vitriol and abuse directed at decent, ordinary Brits- and just because we want to steer our own ship rather than handing over control and influence to foreign powers. Those attitudes won't change but it's better to have it exposed as Leavers know what they're dealing with now.

[pk]

It?s says something to me that such a large proportion of leavers are crying out about being the victims of hate crime (wtf!), democracy being a sham (despite getting what they wanted), a lack of respect and decorum and reasonableness (tho not by them clearly)) Whilst apparently taking more pleasure from baiting the ?losers? and seeing them unhappy than from their own ?win?

They tell others to engage with the future and heal the divide whilst doing the opposite themselves, failing to be gracious even in victory and attacking the losers with juvenile prejudiced stereotypes

And the astounding ignorance as to how the EU works!

To use a ?foreign? word - schadenfreude is not a good look

Surely the ?winners? should be happy to start this new chapter that they wanted so much and excited for the future, focussing on the positivity and control they think they?ve gained, rather than smugly smirking and seeing the best thing as the ?losers? losing not winning themselves and the golden era ahead

[Sephiroth]

?A vote that counts?

It only counts if what you voted for gives you what you want. And there is zero sign of that

If the only thing you want is leaving the eu, then fair enough. But if you want to leave the eu for any significant reason then no. Your vote won?t count because it isn?t based on reality. The cons outweigh the pros. And no amount of voting or positive thinking will change that

[Blah Blah]

Oh dear Citylover. The irony that pervades your post proves my point exactly. It was not the remain protestors on Friday that were aggressively shouting 'scum' at the other side. In fact, it has never been. All the vitriol and bile has come from the leave side, exploited by the far right and various drunken hooligan types. It is a matter of fact that the referendum was 'advisory' in legal terms. There is no twisting of anything there. Go and read the Referendum Bill legislation. The issue has always been political expediency, Tory Party expediency. And if you think a third of the electorate (a quarter of the population) forcing anything is good for democracy then think again. That you so flippantly dismiss the rise in racist, antisemitic and homophobic hate crimes, some of them violent is a display of just why bullies and thugs feel emboldened. You are part of the problem and the backlash will be significant if your Brexit is anything but a roaring success for everyone.

[citylover]

So, "To use a 'foreign' word is not a good look"? Obviously not if your endgame is a one world government but people of all nations use the word foreign to describe people not of their nation and perceiving it as, for instance, xenophobic is a subjective choice. I believe in strong nations and difference, not a bland global mish mash so I see it as a very positive thing that there is us as a nation and many other foreign nations with whom we will agree on some things but not on others. I only wish there were more, I think the US would be far better and far more democratic for instance if it split up into nation states.

And our votes will count because our governments will start being responsible for policy decisions that affect us again, not the EU,and ordinary people will be able to influence those policies via the ballot box, something impossible with us in the EU. It's just the beginning though, over 40 years under the yoke has damaged the UK so much and it's going to take time to learn how to be fully independent again.

[diable rouge]

The referendum being an advisory vote rather than a legally binding vote actually aided the Leave side, because had it been legally binding the referendum could've been anulled due to the Vote Leave campaign breaking electoral laws...

[Sephiroth]

City lover?s language is very indicative of someone who has gone balls deep into Facebook and conspiracy theory websites

?One world government? I ask you

People like Cat will pick people like me up on tone, but when leavers spout absolute nonsense, they would rather take a compliment and thank them than debate their position

[diable rouge]

citylover Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> A democratic system that's largely based on a

> presumption that we are still a cohesive society

> operating on good faith and respect for tradition

> and unwritten rules can't work where we have

> ruthless people with an agenda who do not respect

> any of those things and think nothing of

> exploiting any areas which aren't clearly defined,

> twisting meanings and manipulating the law and

> parliamentary process.

citylover, let me introduce you to Boris Johnson's prorogation of parliament.

Boris Johnson's prorogation of parliament, let me introduce you to citylover.

*Cue awkward silence and shuffling of feet...*

[Sephiroth]

Let?s take a look at Poland. Wonder if they are looking to leave the oppressive institution of the one world government eu

Hmmm. Would appear not

Poland, Kantar poll:

European Union membership referendum

Remain: 94% (+6)

Leave: 6% (-6)

(5% don?t knows excluded)

+/- vs. 21-22 December 2017

Fieldwork: 29-30 January 2020

Sample Size: 1,000

[Sephiroth]

Other things Johnson has done

Weeks ago banging on about his ?oven ready deal? over and over

This week - constant government sources disputing everything about the deal.

Raab lying on the telly this morning about European court of justice being arbiter in disputes not being part of the agreement. It?s there in black and white. We can see it

[diable rouge]

Sephiroth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> People like Cat will pick people like me up on

> tone, but when leavers spout absolute nonsense,

> they would rather take a compliment and thank them

> than debate their position

Yep, unfortunately Cat and his platitudes about reasonable debate don't stand up to reality...

[Sephiroth]

You are being lied to. By your own government.

But the problem is you don?t care

Until people care about being lied to this is all futile. Dangerous. But futile

[Sephiroth]

Quite so, DR

And Cat is by some distance the closest to smart on that side of the debate on here in 2020