Screaming kids

[SeanMacGabhann]

It's this bit that sticks out for me. It's been my observation too.. but what do people put it down to?

Are there reasons specific to this country (I'll also throw in, and in fact up the ante that kids in Ireland are even worse)

[Domitianus]

mightyroar Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I dont understand that last post.

> I'm fairly sure its another dig at children who

> dare to make noise and run around and other

> outrageous things. Is it?

No it isn't. DM pointed out that at Disney she did not see a single child throwing a tantrum. I was introducing the possibility that, rather than us being intolerant of children in the UK, the lack of tantrums in Paris might be due to intolerance of such public behaviour in their children by French parents. Clearly, from DM's description, it was not the case that French children were being badly behaved and this was regarded as being acceptable - it was the case that French children were NOT behaving badly in public and there must be some reason for that, such as a society that will not condone ill-mannered public behaviour in its children.

[Asset]

tantrums at the age of around 2 - 4 are a developmental process where children are unable to moderate their emotions and scare themselves, a proper tantrum is very scary for a child of that age. children of all races and cultures have them, some more intense, some more often etc etc. It is to do with the non-maturity of the forebrain and is nothing to do with parenting.

A child throwing a strop because it's not getting what it wants is not necessarily having a tantrum.

[Asset]

My father's wife, who is French, tells me that the French consider British children to be well behaved, so there you go. The grass is always greener non?

[SeanMacGabhann]

all true Asset but the general point remains: it is more common to see badly behaved children (lets say up until aged 10 for want of a better year) in the British Isles

As it happens I've met some of the children of various forumites and found them all to be pretty splendidly behaved - and I'm being totally honest - then again I've not had the pleasure of meeting loz's second ;-).

But I do have friends here and in Ireland with frankly appalling children. I'm not against fizzy drinks crisps myself but they seem to have their kids hooked up to a drip... It's not the only reason... any bad behaviour is indulged as "ah sure they're just kids"

[mightyroar]

DM was at a disneyland wasnt she. and let me just say I agree with your post DM.

but it's not the greatest test environment for this theory is it?

I think that this 'general point' is just personal opinion. which is fine. but lets not try and extrapolate any principles about pan-european behaviour just yet eh?

it sounds to me like someone's just looking for another stick to beat these terrible Ed parents and their screaming pub going progeny.

[Asset]

I don't think it is true at all Sean, is it not true that we all spend most of our time here in the British Isles? I expect that if one spent most of ones time in say, Italy; then just as many badly behaved children would be seen. I don't see that many badly behaved children personally. I see over-excited, over-tired children sometimes.

I do however agree that the continent has a much more relaxed and tolerant attitude towards children and perhaps that has something to do with it. Children are generally badly behaved when they don't get enough of the right sort of attention.

I don;t think we can generalise and look at French children through rose-tinted spectacles. I would imagine that a fair amount of the children at Disneyland actually were British.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Truthfully I am making a general observation and backed up with zero evidence (just own observations from time abroad in cafes/restaurants and shops) so I'm happy to be persuaded

[dulwichmum]

The children in Disneyland Paris that I am talking about in particular were British. Even on the Eurostar (which went straight to Disneyaland Paris) - the kids were energetic but accommodated and welcome and the usual angst about behaviour (which is really familiar to me as a parent) was just not there. It was genuinely remarkable.

That whole row we get into in our house about "that's my plate and I want the water in the cup before the juice" just was not there, there was no shrieking at all. The children were all happy and chilled. It was genuinely odd. Everything was centred around the kids. The waiting staff served them first and asked them what they wanted to eat directly. I saw buckets of sweets and pop consumed, and it just didn't seem to be any harm. Not for a special occasion. The kids were the centre of attention - not a source of anxiety or embarassment.

I would never have considered taking the children there before, but now I am a complete convert and I want to take my children there for a nice honeymoon together. I am completely serious.

I think that the more I try to dampen down their behaviour (this is certainly true of my parenting), the more anxiety I cause my children to experience and it just becomes a destructive cycle.

I think that we should be much more accommodating and welcoming of children, genuinely. I think that kids in London are suffering from anxiety and that is where the outragous behaviour comes from.

[LizzygotDizzy]

I also think that children are genuinely able to pick up on their parent's stress levels and frames of mind, I know for sure when I really needed the kids to be really well behaved and was getting stressed out about it, (when they were small) i.e. having an important visitor, or going somewhere important I could guarantee that they would behave in exactly the opposite way, and often felt they picked up on my stress vibes and just reacted to how I was feeling or reacting to my own vibe or stress level. Once I'd wised up to this, I would approach situations with the minimum of fuss or stress possible and it did have the desired or better/effect. I think its the same with newborns, if they feel the person handling them is confident and knows what they are doing, they do pick up on the vibes and are actually more settled.

[clare]

Nero - I am not stalking you (honestly) but by strange coincidence I was parked outside-ish yr house waiting for my daughter to come out of school last night. A young woman was pushing a double buggy along with twins in and went inside with the house. I may be wrong but I got the impression that they were a lot lot younger than three.

Maybe wrong house altogether.

Maybe wrong twins altogether.

Or maybe it feels like they've been there for 3 years because of all the racket but actually they are only 18 months /2 ???

Any thoughts?

ps I know Edori which is why I know(ish) where you live !

[Asset]

Well, there you go DM. That's my point. In your original post you didn't mention the kids were British therefore everyone jumped on the 'oh my, European kids are so much better' wagon whereas it is all a matter of perception and attitude.

[SeanMacGabhann]

everyone? or just me... ;-)

[Asset]

Well you, but I think you were not alone, I couldn't be biffed going back a page to check so I made a sweeping statement.

[dulwichmum]

I think that if we want to change children's behaviour in public places, we should be more welcoming and accommodating of them. It seems as though they are the only group that are publicy marginalised and descriminated against. I have found myself saying;

"you can come in to this restaurant as a special treat, but if you draw attention to yourself it is straight home and onto the naughty step..."

I think that the children in London are all suffering from anxiety, and it will do nothing for their self esteem.

I have a good mind to toss the bloomin organic banana chips and raisins into the bin and start again. Everything I have taken for granted about parenting seemed irrelevant last weekend in Disneyland. The kids were pumped full of E numbers, but they were chilled out and it was really amazing.

[Nero]

British parents are very indulgent of their children, whatever class they belong to. That's why we have obese, inactive, socially inept kids who prefer to watch DVDs in their bedrooms or chat for ages on their mobiles. Playing out is unheard of around these parts (though I am heartened to see a few lads having a kick about around Goodrich and Friern roads when the weather is good). Also, there's been a real change on the part of parents when it comes to where they think it's OK to bring their children and how they let them 'express themselves' when in that location. Parents simply don't think about non-parents. It doesn't even enter their heads that other adults might want to have a child-free place. They treat it now as a right, in the same way as they don't question the availability of oxygen. Nero

[Asset]

sweeping statements

[woodie]

Kids screech. my 2 start fighting from the moment they are up. Being girls they superscreech. For a long time i was still a 'non kid' person and would pick them up take em out of anywhere with people around who would be irritated. Before it got too bad, whip em outside let them get over it. mainly because i couldnt stand kids in coffee houses etc. i remember how it annoyed me.However Ive given up the uptight stuff. Sometimes you just cant stop them. They are raw monkey. Sometimes i just let em screech because, theres something important needs attention. Neighbours have politely asked if i could shut em up a bit.

(same people who have relentless banging decoraters in for weeks on end..noise they themselves whilst at work dont get to hear.)

We were all children once we all screeched. Feels good to screech. Ask James brown. he'll tell ya. oops oh. well he used to.

Ask bob Plant. Hes 60 or something. Still screeching.

[Asset]

so what started out as a 'concern for kids welfare' thread has once again descended into a 'what little bastards they all are they should be not seen and not heard' thread.

[SeanMacGabhann]

whoah! I never said that....

[Keef]

France and Italy are much more family centred / friendly places geared more towards kids. Has anyone ever noticed that when in your average pizza express which is usually crammed with kids, the Italian staff will usually make a fuss of every kid in there! Cultural difference.

[blinder999]

On returning to England after any holiday in France, Italy or Spain, there's always a moment of deflation when I realise I'm back in the country where they don't like kids.

An Argentinian FOF who'd lived here for a while, then had a baby here, couldn't stand the pervasive negative attitude towards children here and returned home.

[KalamityKel]

FOF?

[blinder999]

friend of a friend

[dulwichmum]

Thats my point. I now think it sounds really rather intollerant to say - "well I want to eat my meal/drink my pint/read my paper in a child free space." Children are a vital part of our society. No-one would put up with anyone saying "I want to eat/drink and read my paper in an Irish free space - because Irish people are so loud" for example.

We should be far more inclusionist (is that even a word?). It seems as though little children are being sidelined and villified, and it is really unhealthy for them not to have the great example of tolerant adults all around them.