Train service under threat

[Renata Hamvas]

For those of you who use Peckham Rye or Nunhead Stations, you should be aware of this:

A new franchise will bring together services currently operated by: First Capital Connect (FCC), including Wimbledon Loop services; Southern, including metro services, and some Southeastern services, including routes serving stations in Southwark. The franchise will be operational from 2013 (FCC services) and be expanded to include all Southern services in 2015 (to coincide with the start of major works at London Bridge). Some Southeastern services will transfer in 2014 and others yet to be specified on completion of the Thameslink programme in 2018.

The current consultation seeks views on how the new franchise should be specified i.e. what services and train frequencies should be delivered on which routes within the franchise area. The resulting specification will be used as part of the DfT?s procurement process to appoint a new operator, based on their ability to deliver the required services in an effective and efficient manner. Responses to the consultation must be returned to the DfT by the 23rd of August 2012. The consultation document is available on the DfT's website at the link below:

http://www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/dft-2012-23/

I am very concerned as it appears that the line via Denmark Hill, Peckham Rye and Nunnhead is in direct competition with the Wimbledon Loop. One of the these services is likely to get cut and no longer run past Blackfriars northbound. Please fill out the consultation documents.

Renata

[The Minkey]

Is this in addition to the loss of the line running through Denmark Hill to London Bridge, Renata, or did I just imagine another southern line being axed recently?

[willma]

The South London Line (the current service operated by Southern from Victoria and London Bridge) will cease to operate from Dec this year. It will be replaced with a London Overground service running from Islington to Clapham Junction via Peckham Rye with 4 trains per hour. None of these train will serve London Bridge or Victoria.

[Undisputedtruth]

willma Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The South London Line (the current service

> operated by Southern from Victoria and London

> Bridge) will cease to operate from Dec this year.

> It will be replaced with a London Overground

> service running from Islington to Clapham Junction

> via Peckham Rye with 4 trains per hour. None of

> these train will serve London Bridge or Victoria.

Let's be clear on this. The London Overground is not a replacement for the South London Line.

Many rail users, along Battersea-Wandsworth Road-Clapham High Street-Denmark Hill, will be without a train service to London Bridge.

Many rail users, along Wandsworth Road-Clapham High Street-Queens Road Peckham-South Bermondsey, will be without a train service to London Victoria.

[Bic Basher]

With regards to the Wimbledon loop, this line appears to be the one which will be sacrificed north of Blackfriars once the Thameslink upgrade has been completed, however it should be a simple change at Blackfriars which will have an enhanced service running through the centre section from trains running from other parts of the South East.

As for the SLL, Battersea Park will still be served by 2 trains per hour on the outer LB to Victoria service, which runs via Crystal Palace, while Wandsworth Road and Clapham High Street will see trains increase from 2 to four trains per hour with many more connections to tube services than at present alongside those at Clapham Junction which has many more trains to Victoria and new connections to Waterloo and other London Overground services. Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye will still have through trains to Victoria, but will see a reduction in service, especially during late evenings and Sundays. Denmark Hill passengers will have to change at Peckham Rye for trains to LB and Peckham Rye loses two trains per hour to London Bridge, although they could use the Overground and change at Canada Water for the Jubilee line.

The replacement for the SLL will also interchange with Crossrail at Whitechapel once opened.

When LO was introduced to Forest Hill and HOP, changes have been seen to passenger travelling habits, Southern trains which still run are not as busy and Canada Water has taken some of the strain of interchanging without the long walk between the rail and tube platforms at London Bridge.

[Undisputedtruth]

Bic Basher, I don't believe you properly thought this through on the full impact when the SLL is withdrawn in December 2012.

Firstly, let me addressed your point about Battersea Park still having a connection to London Bridge via Crystal Palace. Namely, a doubling of journey times and travel expenses since the line crosses a number of outer travelling zones. Hardly, a consolable option for the person who was using the SLL, is it now?

Secondly, your point about Wandsworth Road and Clapham High street will see an increase in train frequency with an interchange at Clapham Junction does not reflect the reality. You have forgotten to add increase travelling times to Victoria because the journey to Clapham Junction takes you away from London Victoria as well as the hassle in changing platforms at one of the busiest stations in the country.

Thirdly, your point about Denmark Hill users having to change at Peckham Rye or Canada Water does not take into account increase journey times and inconvenience in changing platforms. Denmark Hill serves Kings College and Maudsley hospitals. Don't you think patients, particularly vulnerable and less abled, will find their journeys more difficut? Also, the SLL provides a direct connection between the hospitals at Denmark Hill and Guys hospital at London Bridge station. Especially useful when hospitals share their medical staff between these sites at a time when NHS resource is getting scarce.

Fourthly, while it's true LO will link with Crossrail at Whitechapel, services will not commence until late 2018.

Anymore bright ideas Bic Basher? There's plenty more arguments in my locker.

[Jeremy]

So Denmark Hill is losing the Victoria-London Bridge route, and possible the Blackfriars route too.

Where exactly will you be able to travel to from Denmark Hill? Canada Water and Clapham Junction? Whoop-de-doo.

[benevetts]

Thanks Renata for bringing this to people's attention.

Denmark Hill is not losing its Victoria connection nor its Blackfriars connection. What is at risk is through connections to St Pancras and beyond. This is why people need to fill out the consultation documents, as its unlikely that they will take evidence based on the debate here.

The South London Line debate is finished I'm afraid and the Secretary of State has ruled on it (and I'm not suggesting this is right or wrong). If its any consolation passengers from Denmark Hill will be able to change at Peckham Rye for a connection to London Bridge (which is very frequent and requires no change in platform).

I would urge everyone to fill out the consultation form - the better organised group of users will win this and lets remember that there is the precedent that the Wimbledon loop line has had a through London connection for many years.

[Undisputedtruth]

benevetts Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The South London Line debate is finished I'm

> afraid and the Secretary of State has ruled on it

> (and I'm not suggesting this is right or wrong).

> If its any consolation passengers from Denmark

> Hill will be able to change at Peckham Rye for a

> connection to London Bridge (which is very

> frequent and requires no change in platform).

>

The South London Line debate is not over and I'm sure people would be campaigning for its reinstatement once the London Bridge station has been rebuilt in 2019. The current SoS have not ruled on the South London Line as it was a Mayor's decision and unable to intervene due to the localism agenda. And yes you do have to change platforms at Peckham Rye if you're using the Dartford train service from Denmark Hill.

[benevetts]

There will be four trains an hour on the ELL running through platform 1 and 2 at Peckham Rye (thats twice the number of SLL services), where people can change to get the London Bridge services (which will run up from East Dulwich station). If you get on a Dartford service you will continue to have to change from platform 3 to 2 in the same way as you have to currently.

2019 is quite a long way away no? So lets all work together to protect those services which we can.

For others (as I'm sure UDT has seen this) this is worth a look - you'll see that there is a planned uplift to East Dulwich services from 2015 - so its not all bad news.

[Undisputedtruth]

2019 is a long time away but it doesn't mean that the fight to reinstate the SLL has to stop. Furthermore, as I understand it, the mayor is considering other options to mitigate the loss of the SLL as part of his election manifesto. Possible options are allowing a Kent service to stop at Peckham Rye and Denmark Hill or allow ELL to Victoria.

I'm not interested in just protecting services. I'm more interested in increasing the services. Big difference, don't you think?

[Undisputedtruth]

I very much doubt that the services via Blackfriars will be cut as Kent County Council and rail users group have been campaigning to increase the number of trains. It's probable that the Wimbledon loop services will be cut instead. Perhaps, Southwark Council can learn a thing or two from KCC and help improve rail services in Southwark rather than acting like a lemon during rail cuts.

[Zebedee Tring]

If I have understood the consultation document correctly, operationally it will be more difficult for trains to run from Wimbledon and Herne Hill through Blackfriars and on to the Thameslink core than trains from Denmark Hill. This is because the crossing moves that trains from Herne Hill would have to make would potentially conflict with other trains and thus would threaten the punctuality of a very intensive service. It would therefore make sense for as many trains as possible from Denmark Hill to go through the Thameslink core rather than terminate at Blackfriars.

[antantant]

Is the point that the Wimbledon bunch are mobilising and organising a campaign to stop it being "their" services that are cut - for eg:

http://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/news/local/wimbledonnews/9806530.Campaigners_hope_to_save_Thameslink_service/

and if the campaign is successful, they'll have to cut "ours"?

[Bic Basher]

Undisputedtruth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> benevetts Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

> > The South London Line debate is finished I'm

> > afraid and the Secretary of State has ruled on

> it

> > (and I'm not suggesting this is right or wrong).

>

> > If its any consolation passengers from Denmark

> > Hill will be able to change at Peckham Rye for

> a

> > connection to London Bridge (which is very

> > frequent and requires no change in platform).

> >

> The South London Line debate is not over and I'm

> sure people would be campaigning for its

> reinstatement once the London Bridge station has

> been rebuilt in 2019. The current SoS have not

> ruled on the South London Line as it was a Mayor's

> decision and unable to intervene due to the

> localism agenda.

And where is the capacity for the SLL once LB's refurb is completed? Southern (or by 2019 the combined TL/Southern franchise) are losing two of their platforms. Despite the benefits for local passengers between the two hospitals, from a business point of view, the line was never as viable as a peak time service to Sussex or the Surrey borders.

The fact is that the Southern SLL will close for good in December, passengers will benefit from increased services and better trains as the current 456 rail stock used is far from comfortable and travelling in the peak is unbearable compared to the new class 378's and passenger habits will change when they discover the improved connections made possible at CJ, Clapham HS, Peckham Rye, Canada Water and Whitechapel.

In any case, passengers will still have their connection between the two hospitals via bus Route 40 which runs every 7/8 mins, which a wheelchair passenger will find easier than attempting to navigate the stairs at Denmark Hill.

[Zebedee Tring]

I thought that a lift is to be installed at Denmark Hill in time for the Overground extension.

[Undisputedtruth]

Bic Basher Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> And where is the capacity for the SLL once LB's

> refurb is completed? Southern (or by 2019 the

> combined TL/Southern franchise) are losing two of

> their platforms. Despite the benefits for local

> passengers between the two hospitals, from a

> business point of view, the line was never as

> viable as a peak time service to Sussex or the

> Surrey borders.

>

> The fact is that the Southern SLL will close for

> good in December, passengers will benefit from

> increased services and better trains as the

> current 456 rail stock used is far from

> comfortable and travelling in the peak is

> unbearable compared to the new class 378's and

> passenger habits will change when they discover

> the improved connections made possible at CJ,

> Clapham HS, Peckham Rye, Canada Water and

> Whitechapel.

The whole idea with extending the East London Line was to create an orbital route through London. It had little to do with TfL desire to improve lives for South Londoners. Seriously have you considered the consequences of when the SLL closes. Do you really think that people will easily change their job locations, avoid shopping in the west end or any other leisure activities? Most of the better paid jobs are located in central London, yet TfL makes it more difficult for South Londoners to access these jobs. Hardly progress for people having aspirations?

I also recall a report from Clapham Rail Users Group who simply cannot find a shred of evidence to support Network Rail's claim that there is no capacity for SLL after London Bridge station has been completely rebuilt. After all, the SLL consist of between 2 to 4 carriages.

[Bic Basher]

Undisputedtruth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Bic Basher Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > And where is the capacity for the SLL once LB's

> > refurb is completed? Southern (or by 2019 the

> > combined TL/Southern franchise) are losing two

> of

> > their platforms. Despite the benefits for

> local

> > passengers between the two hospitals, from a

> > business point of view, the line was never as

> > viable as a peak time service to Sussex or the

> > Surrey borders.

> >

> > The fact is that the Southern SLL will close

> for

> > good in December, passengers will benefit from

> > increased services and better trains as the

> > current 456 rail stock used is far from

> > comfortable and travelling in the peak is

> > unbearable compared to the new class 378's and

> > passenger habits will change when they discover

> > the improved connections made possible at CJ,

> > Clapham HS, Peckham Rye, Canada Water and

> > Whitechapel.

>

> The whole idea with extending the East London Line

> was to create an orbital route through London. It

> had little to do with TfL desire to improve lives

> for South Londoners. Seriously have you considered

> the consequences of when the SLL closes. Do you

> really think that people will easily change their

> job locations, avoid shopping in the west end or

> any other leisure activities? Most of the better

> paid jobs are located in central London, yet TfL

> makes it more difficult for South Londoners to

> access these jobs. Hardly progress for people

> having aspirations?

They'll just use the Overground or the Northern line from Clapham instead. It'll also save money for passengers who live south of Clapham who currently crowd the Northern to LB who can avoid Zone 1 to get to Canary Wharf.

> I also recall a report from Clapham Rail Users

> Group who simply cannot find a shred of evidence

> to support Network Rail's claim that there is no

> capacity for SLL after London Bridge station has

> been completely rebuilt. After all, the SLL

> consist of between 2 to 4 carriages.

2-4 carriages of very poor build for a metro service, despite the refurb a couple of years back. I'm sure you must love travelling on the SLL during the peak with your face squashed against the door, due to the lack of capacity?

London Bridge will become a mainly through station thanks to the Thameslink extension, this will lessen space for the terminating platforms during and after the work.

I'd like to hope LOROL go and reach out to the likes of the Clapham Rail Users group and other local societies on the SLL to explain the benefits of the Overground over the current 2 trains per hour service to Vic and LB as the publicity up until now has been about the lack of trains and the DfT's decision to not have Southeastern make additional stops to current stations served.

[Undisputedtruth]

Bic Basher Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> They'll just use the Overground or the Northern

> line from Clapham instead. It'll also save money

> for passengers who live south of Clapham who

> currently crowd the Northern to LB who can avoid

> Zone 1 to get to Canary Wharf.

There is no evidence to say that everyone who uses Clapham North tube station will want to use the East London Line to go to Canary Wharf. I'm afraid making facts up isn't going to win you any kudos here. Furthermore, it has been reported that there are safety concerns at Clapham North station when the SLL closes. Anyone who have visited the tube station will know about the narrow platforms filled to capacity during rush hour. Sorry Bashed Bic but your bright idea ideas isn't that bright.

> 2-4 carriages of very poor build for a metro

> service, despite the refurb a couple of years

> back. I'm sure you must love travelling on the SLL

> during the peak with your face squashed against

> the door, due to the lack of capacity?

>

> London Bridge will become a mainly through station

> thanks to the Thameslink extension, this will

> lessen space for the terminating platforms during

> and after the work.

>

> I'd like to hope LOROL go and reach out to the

> likes of the Clapham Rail Users group and other

> local societies on the SLL to explain the benefits

> of the Overground over the current 2 trains per

> hour service to Vic and LB as the publicity up

> until now has been about the lack of trains and

> the DfT's decision to not have Southeastern make

> additional stops to current stations served.

I'm a regular user of the SLL and I can say for certain that I'll not travel to Clapham Junction for Victoria when the SLL closes. I think most people are more interested in getting to work as quickly as possible rather than admiring the spanking modern trains. I wonder if you ever used the SLL on a daily basis? Probably not, having heard your views.

I also know that the users group in Clapham have fought a hard campaign to retain the SLL. I do detect an hint of naivety when you hoped that LOROL will explain the benefits of the ELL. I'm more than satisfied that these users groups know more about the ELL than you will ever know.

[oimissus]

what are we meant to fill out? I can't see a bit to be completed? Or am I being dim?

[Bic Basher]

Undisputedtruth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Bic Basher Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

> > They'll just use the Overground or the Northern

> > line from Clapham instead. It'll also save

> money

> > for passengers who live south of Clapham who

> > currently crowd the Northern to LB who can

> avoid

> > Zone 1 to get to Canary Wharf.

>

> There is no evidence to say that everyone who uses

> Clapham North tube station will want to use the

> East London Line to go to Canary Wharf. I'm afraid

> making facts up isn't going to win you any kudos

> here. Furthermore, it has been reported that there

> are safety concerns at Clapham North station when

> the SLL closes. Anyone who have visited the tube

> station will know about the narrow platforms

> filled to capacity during rush hour. Sorry Bashed

> Bic but your bright idea ideas isn't that bright.

>

> > 2-4 carriages of very poor build for a metro

> > service, despite the refurb a couple of years

> > back. I'm sure you must love travelling on the

> SLL

> > during the peak with your face squashed against

> > the door, due to the lack of capacity?

> >

> > London Bridge will become a mainly through

> station

> > thanks to the Thameslink extension, this will

> > lessen space for the terminating platforms

> during

> > and after the work.

> >

> > I'd like to hope LOROL go and reach out to the

> > likes of the Clapham Rail Users group and other

> > local societies on the SLL to explain the

> benefits

> > of the Overground over the current 2 trains per

> > hour service to Vic and LB as the publicity up

> > until now has been about the lack of trains and

> > the DfT's decision to not have Southeastern

> make

> > additional stops to current stations served.

>

> I'm a regular user of the SLL and I can say for

> certain that I'll not travel to Clapham Junction

> for Victoria when the SLL closes. I think most

> people are more interested in getting to work as

> quickly as possible rather than admiring the

> spanking modern trains. I wonder if you ever used

> the SLL on a daily basis? Probably not, having

> heard your views.

>

> I also know that the users group in Clapham have

> fought a hard campaign to retain the SLL. I do

> detect an hint of naivety when you hoped that

> LOROL will explain the benefits of the ELL. I'm

> more than satisfied that these users groups know

> more about the ELL than you will ever know.

Excuse me Mr Troll, I'm on a South London transport user group and we're MORE than happy with LOROL's work and have spoken to a member of the Clapham user group at a LOROL meeting in the spring. While he had reservations, it wasn't a complete no to the ELL extension.

Now instead of trolling like a little boy who doesn't get his way, how about debating the issue like an adult instead of trying to persuade people that it's your way or no way. You have the facts not just from me, others have clearly stated what is going to happen.

Boris is attempting to gain the Metro part of Southeastern (bar the TL services currently run by them south of Blackfriars) once the franchise is up for renewal which could lead to a more regular service on the Victoria to Dartford service including late evenings and Sundays. How about supporting that instead of hiding behind a keyboard using childish remarks towards me because I don't agree with your viewpoint. Now that is the undisputedtruth.

[Undisputedtruth]

Well if you're a member of transport user group then I'm very disappointed with your level of knowledge and a total disregard for the South London Line service. I could easily back up my views with a parliamentary debate on this issue and various MPs comments. So your claim that it's my way only shows how little you actually know. And if you want to name drop then I've recently attended a South Eastern rail group meeting and talked to a senior member of the London Travel Watch last year.

I also know people who deal with senior officials at TfL, and as you may not know, LOROL reports to TfL in any case.

Anyway, I'm not totally against the ELL as I can see some benefits but I'm not naive to think it's a replacement for the South London Line with its very useful links to central London areas.

[Undisputedtruth]

antantant Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Is the point that the Wimbledon bunch are

> mobilising and organising a campaign to stop it

> being "their" services that are cut - for eg:

>

> http://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/news/local/wimb

> ledonnews/9806530.Campaigners_hope_to_save_Thamesl

> ink_service/

>

> and if the campaign is successful, they'll have to

> cut "ours"?

Well they will have to contend with the Kent Rail Users groups who have been campaigning for increasing rail frequency via Blackfriars for some time.

[benevetts]

Oh for goodness sake...those that want to try and help protect our through London services please respond to the consultation. I note that there are a number of questions so it might be better if everyone wrote that they were responding to "Q.18 What services that run via Elephant & Castle do respondents think should run via the Thameslink core route?" and then provide your response, as there are a huge number of questions that are irrelevant. It would be also worthwhile informing your councillors that you are doing this so that they can take up the cause at council level (since LB Southwark is a statutory consultee).

The email address to send it to is here: [email protected]

If you want to get involved in broader campaigning about rail services in the area, in particular the South London Line, then check out the Southwark Rail Users Group http://www.bellenden.net/srug

[LondonMix]

Renata, is your concern that users of Denmark Hill / Peckham Rye and Nunhead will have to terminate at Blackfriars and lose direct access to City Thameslink / Farringdon / St Pancreas? If the Wimbledon route terminates at Blackfriars, am I right to assume those who use Herne Hill lose access to the same stations and the in general, this part of south London will lose access to north London (Hampstead / Mill Hill and Luton Airport)? Within the broader context of the major transport changes that will occur, will there be any opportunities to access all of these stations?

Also, what's the uplift in service in 2015? I read through the document but it was not immediately apparent.

Thanks,

LM