Caffe Nero planning application review (Update - refused)

[Quaywe]

I will say one thing I am learning from some of you - particularly the parents with little one's and the one's that like to linger a for little longer with their laptop and/or paper - is that there is definately a market for this sort of store.

It's just a shame that it isn't a local independant operator providing the service. Would a local operater have been able to provide this service in that premises had the rental price not been so high that only a chain store could afford it?

It's good to see such encouraging banter on this site. Great to see everyone with an opinion.

[clare]

Dear mr mikewbate

you did the right thing.I am never going into the Bm again on a Sat- it was a nightmare. I now have bad headache and am going for a lie down.

I recommend Jacks on pellat Road for off peak coffee8uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu9i ( sorry my cat just walked across keyboard)

ps sorry don't think I spotted DM in BM either. Too many fragrant ladies!!!

[dulwichmum]

Dear Clare,

I am so sorry Clare, I just got back from The Bellenden experiment, I could not get parking anywhere near Blue Mountain early this morning. I wish I had known you were going, but I had already logged off. I went and bought some amazing cake from the lovely cake shop as per Beths previous recommendation. Perhaps we should arange a coffee morning out for those of us with little ones - I never get to go out at night alone. James is terrified I will elope with Mr Batdog!

[beth]

I like Jack's as well - great chocolate brownie with ice cream!! yum, yum! Really moist - not hard and crusty like some british brownies can be. The thing is, I go to a cafe of some description in this area at least once a day - if not twice (and going a third time isn't unknown)!! So I have to mix them up.

This is because a) working at home can be boring and I sometimes get more done outside and b) if I didn't have the reward of a coffee to look forward to after an hour in the freezing cold at Goose Green playground motherhood wouldn't be worth living.

So I find that different cafe's are great for different times of days/moods etc - and you can support the independents while also finding the Cafe Nero's useful and a good place to meet/work/feed babies/etc. I agree if an independent provider could provide the same thing as Cafe Nero, I would use it instead.

But I do feel guilty if I go into an independent and just order a coffee on a busy Saturday - and as a struggling self-employed person, I can't really justify buying food at every cafe. That's why Nero is quite useful - I have no guilt about occupying a table at peak periods!

[Michael Palaeologus]

I still have my teddy-bear (called "Ted") and my Panda (called "Panda") from babyhood - could they be my "little ones" and so could I come to the young mum's coffee morning? Panda still has Vicks stains on him from when I had cold and was convinced that Panda had one as well.

Sounds fab!!

[Muttley]

It seems that nobody objects to the location being used as a cafe, it's just that lots of people don't want it to be a chain. So the best outcome would be if Nero are sent packing (deservedly - they have no right to consider themselves above the law), and a local takes it over as an independent cafe. Then they should merge with Chener Books to make this East Dulwich's equivalent of Borders. Finally, they should put in a donations box for those who feel guilty about sitting with a laptop in the corner not drinking coffee. Voila.

[karter]

I am a retailer close to caffe' nero, initially alot of us didn't like the idea of them coming in. It's wrong that they have handled it the corporate bullyish way and being cocky by thinking they would get planning consent ( after opening). However the shop itself has been of benefit and use and has brought new people to the area. As a retailer I can see this. It hasn't really impacted on our coffee shop business friends.Competition makes a business restructure and be inventive.

Alot of buggies and wheelchairs can get it, which is great. It can be noisy sometimes due to the toddlers and babies screaming their heads off oh and the mothers too, but hey fair enough. Muttley.....just as well they charge for their wireless internet by the hour other wise lots of people would be in there freeloading and without a coffee. Then again I think alot of people in there and in the know freeload off other connections anyway . ;-)

K

[bald marauder]

I (possibly like many others) am a creature of contradictions. I hate chains and the chain mentality (especially US ones) but I have been known to go to Starbucks when it is the most viable option (eg before/after shopping at Sainsburys with my baby daughter). I think what CN have done is really out of order, but I personally don't have a huge problem with them per se, and am actually quite pleased that if ED is going to have a coffee chain then CN is probably the best of a bad bunch.

I actually suggested to the EDD guys before CN opened that they should have taken the space for an EDD cafe, but they felt they wouldn't have been able to make it pay for itself. If landlords continue charging prohibitive rents for local businesses, then in the next 10 years LL will change for the worse. But we can all vote with our feet and wallets, so just don't go the places you don't like - I went once to Gourmet Burger (a smallish chain) and thought it was over-priced s**t, I will never go back, and prefer to support the Herne, which does lovely burgers (though the fries could be slightly fatter) and great chicken liver pate too.

In any case, Petitou on Choumert road p****s all over BM and CN - AND they serve cakes from the much-mentioned 'let them eat cake'. (The crumpets with chives and marmite are also fantastic, as are the chocolate and banana milkshakes). Or do other forum users not make it down to scary Peckhaam very often ;)

[Michael Palaeologus]

There is something of the King Canute here. ED is not an island. The influx of new, young and moneyed people will attract the retailers. I dont think LL will end up as a homogenous line of chain stores simply because there isnt THAT much money in the area and there are already enough chains on the Lane (banks, building socs, estate agents, supermarkets, etc).

Many of the indies are on the side streets and it would seem that there is a very specific niche market who actively seek out indies rather than chains.

My experience of the Blue Mountain Cafe on Saturday did not betray a business on its uppers.

[beth]

Yes, Peitou is the best, a great cafe where everyone knows your name, and owners Matt and Claire are lovely - but a bit mad at peak time! My guide to local cafe's is as follows (based on much experience of)

Peititou, Chomert Rd- great cakes, scrambled eggs on toast divine and tuna with balasmic vinger fab. Everyone knows your name - crazy with kids at peak time but a wonderful place to go anytime - with or without the kiddies.

Lucus and Richards (Bellenden Road) - Slightly subdued atmosphere but a nice place to read the paper and drink your tea in peace particularly if you don't have a kid in tow.

Cafe Nero - Chain but lots of space for buggies/wheelchairs.Comfy chairs for breastfeeding Easy to work in and can easily avoid paying for broadband by linking into other servers in area. Staff are friendly and sometimes quite eccentric which is fun. No-one cares or hassles you if you stay the whole morning and just have 1 cup of coffee and read the free papers.

Mon Peitit Chou - Lordship Lane - Great chilli, free papers, table layout abit awkward but nice and friendly.

Blue Mountain - good food but alittle pricey. Some fun and friendly staff, great community noticeboard. Mad at peak times - easiest to come with baby at out of peak hours. Best to park the buggy outside or in the garden at the back.

Tulip Cafe - Lordship Lane - FANTASTIC fry-ups, very affordable.

Jack's - Pellat Road - lovely cafe, superb chocolate brownie warmed up with ice cream. Wish it was open on Sundays.

Duliwch Park Cafe - the place to go with kiddies, playcorner, highchairs etc. Service and food variable however.

Hornimann Museum Cafe - Great space - fantastic for families but mad with kids on Fridays and weekends. Food of variable quality but staff really nice.

Uplands Cafe - Upland Road - Open early so great for breakfast before work or after dropping kids off at nursery. Lovely toast on crusty bread. Nice mix of people use cafe.

[karter]

Great guide Beth.....and theres green and blues now :o)))

[Tom]

Just one thing I noticed in the application refusal and Counciler Thomas' reply.

If Nero have been turned down as a result of 50% of shops not being retail, this also means that there will be no new restaurants (nice little Italian, tapas etc). I know this is something the users of this forum support.

I am getting annoyed with my fellow users and their militant approach to everything and constantly flying off in a rage. Diversity is key to Lordship lane / EDulwich. I am sure there would be no complaints if a nice family run Trattoria tried to open in place of Nero (stinky noisy extract unit not withstanding).

Perspective guys pls.

[mockney piers]

I'm not sure I've seen this militancy of which you speak (apart from snorky obviously), occasionally people get a bit heated. The hardline here comes from the council surely, with that arbitrary 50% rule, which neither seems sensible or well defined.

That notwithstanding, there are quite a number of tenapenny eminently forgettable food places on LL and I wouldn't lose sleep at night were they to close and allow a space for someone to open up something a tad more interesting, even were that to be a legitimate Nero.

[SimonM]

>>Hornimann Museum Cafe - Great space - fantastic for families but mad with kids on Fridays and weekends. Food of variable quality but staff really nice<<

Things may have changed since, but then this cafe first opened after the amssive re-vamp pf the Horniman it was run by the same people who own/run Mon Petit Chou

[SimonM]

>>>Have you ever had coffee from a Nespresso machine? I hate the idea of using those special pods, and much prefer the idea of fresh coffee, and I despise Nestle and Nescafe, but - the Nespresso machine makes spectacular Nespresso with superb crema...... I was horrified.<<<

Umm...yes I have...and what is more I enjoyed it. But in my defence this was (possibly) a nespresso clone in a hospital coffee shop, and one is so pathetically grateful to get anything that is vaguely coffeeesque and drinkable in such an environment that I thought it well worth the risk of losing all my gastronomic street cred...I mean I can remember when a cup of coffee in a hospital was made with half a teaspoon of revolting brown gunge with boiling water poured over it...

In general I do shuddder at the very concept of pods though - coffee's own version of "Invasion Of The Body Snatchers"? - and yes the home-made espresso with one of those cheapo-cheapo metal makers you can buy for 37p in France is quite delightful, if you don't mind the burnt fingers and the fiddly washing-up afterwards. But one's own kitchen lacks a little ambience when compared to a nicely set-up coffee shop with a tempting array of 500 calorie home made cake slices and the creme de la creme of East Dulwich cafe society sashaying by...B)

[dulwichmum]

Dear SimonM,

I agree, there is nothing like having it brewed for you with a nice slice of cake and a good view!

[swiders]

well, one of a number of things may have happened here.

sure, the 50% rule may exist as policy but the officers didn't see fit to accept that as a reason for outright refusal of the application in the first place did they - or did i miss something? why is that the case? were the officers of the same opinion as Tom?

so, if the 50% rule was applied as a reason for refusal by councillors, a statement of fact by Cllr Thomas on this forum, was there a precedent for other applications or are councillors well versed in minutae of local planning policies and their legal implications that they were always going to refuse the application? or is it a case of local barracking from (and i can only draw from other postings from numerous people here who aren't offended that CN trades) a vocal minority?

i thoroughly agree with mockney - if the borough hangs on to the 50% policy as a means of defence and they lose an appeal, what % of cafe/restaraunt is considered a good balance and would this ruling open up the way for other food/cafe outlets to open on LL? how much is too much?