Caffe Nero planning application review (Update - refused)

[karter]

Caffe nero have enforcements notices made against them by southwark it seems.....

[SimonM]

>>>At the risk of being flamed on my second post, what's so terribly wrong with Caffe Nero? Someone must like it otherwise it would have closed up already.<<

An excellent question. The place is always close to full each time I pass so there's clearly a local demand for its services. Perhaps one reason it is popular is that, unlike a number of the atrociously expensive, non-chain bars/cafes now littered along Lordship Lane the people behind the conversion of the design took care to make the cafe easily and fully accessible to pushchairs and wheelchairs. (And in this connection, the proud sign on the door of the East Dulwich Tavern boasting a wheelchair-accesible bog always amuses me, given the height of the step you have to negotiate to enter the pub in the first place)

Interestingly, the other chain cafe-type place along Lordship Lane - the Gourmet Burger Kitchen - did likewise, whereas the seemingly-cherished "local" browsing-and-sluicing joints took some care to ignore both the provisions of the Disablity Discrimination Act and to discourage generally anything/one on wheels.

I have sympathy for the guy living close by who gets woken up by the noisy fan - but that is probably a problem that can be surmounted without denying Nero its change of use Order, and good luck to him if his tactical manoevre gets Nero to do this. But if Nero has to close who knows what may replace it? I suspect they will win their appeal.

As for the "opening the floodgates" argument, well Starbucks - which as a lover of proper coffee and real crockery I of course loathe and despise - is already here anyway, having failed to get the Shepherds site in the Village. Other chains are also already here - all those estate agents are hardly local entrepreneurs giving Lordship Lane any kind of village ambience after all. ditto the chemists' shops.

[swiders]

Subject to them wanting to appeal, I would suggest that it would be the smart money on there still being a Cafe Nero in situ for many years to come. So, your lattes from non-locally based profit-mongers, as some would possibly call them, are probably safe (cue: sigh of relief from my girlfriend). In a situation such as this where the grounds of refusal are questionable and the initial applications have been supported by the local planning authority in question, an appeal under hearing from an Inspector will most likely find in favour of Nero. As stated in the Officers report -

"The applicants in support of their application submitted two appeal decisions (ref: APP/l1765/C/04/1147130 - 107 High Street, Winchester and P/PPA/230/659 & P/ENA/230/118 - 177 Morningside Road, Edinburgh), for similar A1/A3 uses where planning permission was granted and an enforcement notice quashed. The Inspectors in both appeals concluded that the use of the appeal premises had no adverse effect on the vitality and viability of the shopping frontage, the fact that pedestrian flows are maintained and it is a use which needs to be maintained on the ground floor of a primary shopping frontage. The Inspectors also concluded that the use complements the retail function of the primary shopping frontage and draws people to it thereby increasing its attractiveness."

Inspectors are very straight forward animals in that they don't take emotion into account. PeckhamNative - costs are not always sought after by defendants in cases where they are in effect in accordance with the Borough itself. Its a case by case basis - sometimes they may feel there is no point in sticking the boot in where they have to work with the Borough elsewhere (for e.g. Nero may have other outlets on the table they want to have dealt with). Others simply may want to draw a line.

Precedent + Lack of Reasonable Grounds (pardon the coffee pun...couldn't help myself) = Nero to stay

[CrystalClear]

Ah, the estate agents, now they really are scum!

[Peckham native]

Totally agree swiders. In regard costs I wasn't only thinking of costs sought by the applicant but more the cost of officer hours at Southwark preparing for the appeal etc.

[Cllr Richard Thomas]

There is an issue about small retailers versus the big chains. This planning decision was not about that though.

I spoke against the application on the grounds that it would result in fewer than half the units in the parade being A1 retail use. That is the clear requirement of our planning policies and it is about maintaining the viability of the shopping area.

The next step is that Caffe nero will appeal to the planning inspector to overturn the decision.

richard

richardthomas.org.uk

[swiders]

it wouldn't be the first time an officer has to effectively defend a position at Inquiry that they initially argued against. unless southwark log working hours (or a consultant does the work for them) you will probably never know. the overall bill will end up in the thousands for sure.

my pounds would be on a successful appeal if they do appeal. and a side bet on sheeepish southwark representations to the Inspector having to defend what is, at best, not a position of any strength.

[DirtyBox]

er, re the resident who lives above it, what did they expect when they bought the flat above a shop in a very busy road, peace? tranquility?

I'm not saying they should be kept awake all night but living above a retail premises comes with certain risks which means these properties are quite a bit cheaper. You can't have your cake and eat it (unless he/she goes downstairs!)

[SimonM]

>>I spoke against the application on the grounds that it would result in fewer than half the units in the parade being A1 retail use<<

Out of curiosity what was the geographic extent of "the parade" for the purposes of this application and/or Council policy? just the few shops from the East Dulwich Grove junction northwards, or the Lordship Lane shopping area as a whole?

[Peckham native]

Interesting that the Council officer involved recommended this for approval. An extract from the report from Southwark's website:-

"The use of the premises for combined A1/A3 use would result in the partial loss of retail floorspace. Although the site is located within a protected shopping frontage, the proposal which involves a combination of both A1 and A3 uses would not undermine the shopping objectives of the area as it would not result in a reduction of retail uses below 50% of the shopping frontage in compliance with Policy 1.10 of the Southwark UDP 2007. Furthermore the proposed use compliments the retail function of the parade with no adverse effects on the vitality or viability of the shopping frontage. "

Successful appeal for Nero looks more & more likely.

[dulwichmum]

Dear Mr SimonM,

'well Starbucks - which as a lover of proper coffee and real crockery I of course loathe',

Starbucks use crockery, unless you are having a take away, and you can't really blame them for giving out paper cups when you order a take out, unless you wish to buy a mug when you are there. I am not in any way trying to be confrontational by taking you up on this point, and I know they generate a huge amount of trash with their take-aways. I love Starbucks, and I love coffee, and I don't really understand why these shops are so universally villified. I have been to Kenya to a coffee farm, and also to a coffee farm in the West Indies. I like to think I know a little about it (very little I would admit), I have a super coffee machine in the house, along with various cafetierres, pots and filters, and I love Starbucks coffee. I am delighted that there has been one in Sainsburys instead of some dreadful coffee shop with white plastic seats and oven chips. When my babies were small, I loved their big soft arm chairs, and weighty mugs. Blue Mountain is not the most comfortable place to sit and chat with your friends, the chairs are hard and the staff unfriendly. Cafe Nero looks good, and is comfortable and the staff are friendly. I think the coffee is very good there.

I love Starbucks, and I love coffee. I am not having a go at anyone, I just do.

[bald marauder]

Well, I think Blue Mountain gets an unduly hard time on this forum. Admittedly I was surprised by the amount on my bill for two sandwiches and coffees last time I went, but while it's a little on the cosy side, the staff have always been very friendly and accommodating on my visits. (And I believe some of their cakes are now provided by the nice woman from the cake/veg shop on bellenden road.) As for starbucks, I guess that coffee is a very personal taste, but I think theirs sucks (bland, no real flavour/subtlety and over-milky) - nero coffee is much, much nicer - though of course the best coffee comes from Monmouth Coffee (now it would be nice to have one of their shops on LL)...

[Michael Palaeologus]

Its all round to D-Ms for coffee then. Sounds like she has every coffee gadget known to mankind.

[bob]

Monmouth Coffee is just the best

Bob S

[beth]

Personnally, I'm going to miss it. When I have the sprog, it's easily accessible with the pushchair - it has a clean loo and great babychanging area. I use alot of local cafe's as well - usually without the baby as when they are crowed, it's difficult to get all the baby stuff and highchair etc. And, as some of the posters to this website have expressed there is some antipathy towards parents with kids in other venues. It's an easy place to work in with the laptop as well - it pisses cafe owners off, people with laptops nursuing coffee forever but in Cafe Nero, it doesn't matter. The disability access is a good point - there are several regular users of cafe Nero who are disabled or have mobility problems and it's true that alot of the other independent shops have ignored the disabled access issue altogether. I think the popularity of this place points to a real need for a true coffee house that has the space for a range of people - buggies, people in wheelchairs, groups of teens looking for a hangout, older people wanting to read the paper, etc. etc. I don't want to feel like me and my baby are annoying people or taking up space by customers who would order more food than our coffees and juice! Personally, I think Cafe Nero drew people away from the Sainbury's where their is (or was) a Starbucks to the shopping area in Lordship Lane. What will happen when the new Sainbury's with new Starbucks is built is that people will have even more reason to not shop locally on Lordship Lane. If Cafe Nero was an independent, I'd much prefer it but I think there is a real need for the kind of service it provides.

[dulwichmum]

I completely agree with Beth. With or without kids, to do some work, read the paper or escape. Cafe Nero or Starbucks are spacious and friendly. Actually, a decent big coffee shop on Lordship Lane will keep people out of Sainsbury's and support small shops on LL!

[beth]

Totally right Dulwich Mum! What gets me, is that the new, revamped Sainbury's will be much more of a threat to Lordship Lane than Cafe Nero ever is really and none of the chattering classes seem to object to Sainbury's. Cafe Nero I think brought people into Lordship Lane. I don't have a car and rarely use Sainbury's now but before Cafe Nero, I was drawn there with the sprog by Starbucks - I was breastfeeding and there is nothing like a comfy sofa and hot coffee to bring in a b'feeding mum!! And I see the same thing with Cafe Nero, tired parents who need somewhere easy to go where they won't be tutted at, where they can b'feed in comfy chairs, where there is easy access to highchairs and where they can get buggies in and out with no fuss. My partner only takes the sprog to Cafe Nero when he is doing his childminding days - he feels (rightly or wrongly but it's how he feels) too self conscious in other venues where he feels like it is a big production to get in, to a table, get a highchair, fold up buggy etc. So he'll just return to Starbucks when it re-opens.

Also, I wanted to say I also love Blue Mountain - some of the staff are just so lovely, particularly Louis who is fantastic with kids and really nice. Nice food (but ?1.70 for ONE slice of toast (I thought an order of toast meant two slices actually!), nice cake, nice space. But we only go there first thing with the sprog on weekends - it gets too crowded otherwise. And, as far as I can see, Cafe Nero didn't dent Blue Mountains business one dot!!

So all this decision has done means that a coffee shop which admittly is part of a chain but where you can buy a coffee for just over ?1.50, which seems to attract a diverse range of local residents from the older gentleman who pitches up every morning to read the free papers to the tired b'feeding mum to the local teenagers who don't want to hang out on a street corner is going to be replaced by yet another retail outlet where there is little you can buy for under ?20. Great.

[beth]

p.s the cakes at Blue Mountain are primairly from Konditor and Cook - I recommend the Curly Wurly. But 'Let Them Eat Cake' at Bellenden Road is providing cakes for the owner of Blue Mountain's other venture in Fulham and hopefully, he'll use them at Blue Mountain soon. For yummy cakes from lovely Anna of Let Them Eat Cake, go to 157 Bellenden Road on Saturdays between 10 - 4pm or to put in an order email her at [email protected] She made the most divine cupcakes for my sprog's 2nd birthday.

[Huguenot]

Beth, full of love :)) but I know that if you break your paragraphs up they'll be easier to read on-line. Try 2 sentences max to a paragraph!

OK last one was only 2 sentences. In this case, just the one!

[SimonM]

>>Starbucks use crockery, unless you are having a take away, and you can't really blame them for giving out paper cups when you order a take out, unless you wish to buy a mug when you are there. I am not in any way trying to be confrontational by taking you up on this point, and I know they generate a huge amount of trash with their take-aways.>I love Starbucks, and I love coffee, and I don't really understand why these shops are so universally villified.<<

I have never had an espresso in Starbucks that was truly hot, that had a proper crema or an acceptable flavour. I don't like their prices, or their sizing system. More generally I don't like the way they colonise our shopping centres and help eradicate any trace of local character amongst the shops. In Miami Beach, on Lincoln Road Mall, which is maybe as long as that part of Lordship Lane from Goose Green to the Townley Road junction, there are no less than four branches of Starbucks. I am sure nothing on that scale would happen here but it is a chilling thought. :))

Obviously personal taste in coffee is just that - a personal thing. But to me coffee is always far superior in France or Italy to that sold in the UK and Ireland and, yes, the USA. I don't think the British truly like real coffee :)) -- they seem to go for this really weak brew!

[SimonM]

Before your message, it had not occurred to me that Caffe Nero might even attract people to Loordship Lane away from Sainsburys, but you make a convincing case.:)

The place was still doing a roaring trade when I passed it today - so much so that I do wonder if a campaign to "Save the Nero" - should the Council decide to try and enforce the partial closure before the appeal is held - may yet emerge? It does seem clear that at the present time CN offers certain facilities not offered by any other similar establishment in SE22.

[beth]

OK Hugo - point taken about the sentences!

Cheers,

Beth

[dulwichmum]

Dear SimonM,

I really appreciated that you took on board what Beth and I were saying. Sometimes it can be quite scarey to express an opposing point of view on here - you are a gentleman indeed.

Beth, I had no idea that cakes from Konditor and Cook were sold in Blue Mountain! I shall be going there this morning to have a slice of the curley wurley cake. I was working at London Bridge for a while, and that was my favourite cake from my favourite shop! I shall also check out if they still sell the terrific chocolate eclairs that a local lady used to make for them on a thursday only.

Also - Simon M, point taken about hot espresso, although I find Espresso (particularly italian) is nicest from a pot off the stove.

Have you ever had coffee from a Nespresso machine? I hate the idea of using those special pods, and much prefer the idea of fresh coffee, and I despise Nestle and Nescafe, but - the Nespresso machine makes spectacular Nespresso with superb crema...... I was horrified.

[clare]

Dear DM

I am meeting a friend for coffee at the BM this very morning- flushed with the excitement of spotting mr Mikewbate the other night I am keeping my eyes open for curly wurly cake eating fellow forum user....

[Michael Palaeologus]

I put my head round the door of the BMC this morning and then ran away - packed full of lovely young mothers and children. Scary.

I will try elevenses on Monday - might be safer.