100 hr pharmacy in C.Palace rd ?

[doubledutch]

Not sure why people here are attacking LondonMix. It seems to me she is not rejecting the idea of a needle exchange but where the needle exchange might open. Whether it's next to Gumboots or next to Foxtons it'll still be in East Dulwich, no? I don't see how s/he is looking down her nose at anyone?

[Sue]

doubledutch Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Not sure why people here are attacking LondonMix.

> It seems to me she is not rejecting the idea of a

> needle exchange but where the needle exchange

> might open. Whether it's next to Gumboots or next

> to Foxtons it'll still be in East Dulwich, no? I

> don't see how s/he is looking down her nose at

> anyone?

xxxxxx

I'm not attacking him/her.

I'm suggesting that the material she is quoting in support of her views is not actually proving anything about the effects, if any, which a needle exchange may have on the surrounding neighbourhood.

ETA: I'm very willing to listen to any proven facts, particularly as I live just round the corner from DMC and it is my surgery.

[doubledutch]

Sue--I understand from your posts that you know about drug addiction personally through your relatives, but your tone from the start of this thread has been to dismiss anyone's concern that the opening of a needle exchange next to a nursery is silly. Now, first of all I don't even live in ED so I am not directly affected by whether it opens or not, causes more crime, or doesn't. BUT I do think it's good to have a discussion about where needle exchanges are situated. Aside from all that, is that it for addicts? A handful of exchanges so they stay "safe" while shooting up? What about help to get them clean and to stay clean? But that's a whole other issue!

[Sue]

doubledutch Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Sue--I understand from your posts that you know

> about drug addiction personally through your

> relatives, but your tone from the start of this

> thread has been to dismiss anyone's concern that

> the opening of a needle exchange next to a nursery

> is silly. Now, first of all I don't even live in

> ED so I am not directly affected by whether it

> opens or not, causes more crime, or doesn't. BUT I

> do think it's good to have a discussion about

> where needle exchanges are situated. Aside from

> all that, is that it for addicts? A handful of

> exchanges so they stay "safe" while shooting up?

> What about help to get them clean and to stay

> clean? But that's a whole other issue!

xxxxx

Yes that's a whole other issue, so why raise it here?

And all I am asking for is some evidence, which nobody so far has been able to give me.

Without that, there is no point in discussion, is there, because it is based on nothing.

And as somebody has pointed out above, all sorts of sick people are already visiting the DMC, which is next to the nursery.

ETA: And now I'm closing down my laptop for the evening!

[LondonMix]

Sorry, let me clarify. The only point the first link is making is that there is a connection between crime and drug addiction and this connection is acknowledged by organisations that support needle exchanges such as the NHS. Please see link on same page to NHS needle exchange program http://www.nta.nhs.uk/healthcare-nems.aspx. I've included this since you accused the other link of bias.

As I already stated, there have not been any studies I can find in the UK that have been carried out positive or negative but there are reports in the US that exchanges are at times accompanied by an increase in crime. I don't believe there should be any increase unless the facility is used by more than just local addicts. However, this facility will attract addicts from outside the local area due to the unique longer opening hours. If addicts from outside the local area are encourgaged to come to ED in the evening due to late night opening hours, given the link between addiction and crime (particularly crimes of opportunity) I think we have to think about how to deal with the risks associated with this as part of the proposal.

If ED is the best place for this, should the facility be accompanied by additional police patrols? Should it be located on a residential street? Will more lighting need to be installed / CCTV? The argument some seem to be making that an increase in the addict population visiting our area will have no consequences and that they won't even consider discussing mitigating strategies until a study is carried out in this country really surprises me.

However, I would also like to understand why the pharmacy believes an additional exchange is needed here? I would imagine that an exchange with longer hours serving the wider Southwark area (most local areas including ED already have exchanges with normal hours) should be located where either the concentration of intravenous drug users is greatest or in a location easiest to commute to for most residents of Southwark. Has any of this been included in the application? Someone earlier suggested the pharmacy is using the provision of this service as a cynical means to get the application for longer hours approved. While this might not be true and they might be motivated by pure altruism, has anyone actually studied if ED is the best location for such a facility within Southwark?

[doubledutch]

Yeah, step away from the computer Sue. Seriously, why dismiss others who's opinion you don't share? Oh and I suppose more facilities beyond needle exchanges is off topic here, but geez can you get a little bit more rude about me mentioning it here? First you attack people for not being "inclusive" of drug addicts, and then when someone questions whether or not these facilities are even enough for them, it's suddenly--why mention it??? "there is no point in discussion..." right... and so can you prove that having these facilities don't promote crime? Where are your studies backing this opinion up please?

[the-e-dealer]

A late night. Chemist in e Dulwich would be great.

[midivydale]

I would very much welcome an alternative pharmacy to lloyds on north cross who has a habit of messing up most prescription requests i hand to them.

I can understans the concern regarding needle exchange but who is o judge where it is best needed? I think it is highly unlikely that any residents would deem their stret as the best place for it...

However clearly there has been established that a need there is.

I work in financial services in the city which is full of drug addicts, many of hom live in ed. i very much doubt that they would have to fund their drug use by breakins.

Not trying to marginalise peoples fears, just trying to add another perspective on who is in need of the facilities.

[DJKillaQueen]

But Sue does have a point. The majority of drug users don't commit crime to pay for their drugs.....because they have and hold down good jobs. Like many things, when something goes wrong, it goes badly wrong and then everyone gets tarred with the same brush. Recall the thread on plans to move a YOS to ED, or the more recent thread on beggars....they all have the same shades of prejudice, ignorance and unfounded fear.

For me the issue of drug misuse and anti-social behaviour are two seperate issues. Crime and anti-social behaviour is committed by all kinds of people and not all people who drink or take drugs commit crime.

I would think that anyone going to the needle exchange out of hours will be focussed purely on getting what they need in a safe environment......not on causing havoc to the nightlife of ED. If any issues do emerge then I have faith in the local police and other authorities to deal with them. And if no UK studies exist exploring the impact of needle exchanges on local communities, then that suggests to me thet there isn't any problem with such facilities within the UK.

[Sue]

doubledutch Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Yeah, step away from the computer Sue. Seriously,

> why dismiss others who's opinion you don't share?

xxxx

I'm not dismissing anybody.

I'm asking for statistical evidence, rather than opinions, on the effect on the immediate neighbourhood of opening needle exchanges in the UK .

I was trained as a scientist and hence I prefer to see this kind of decision based on facts rather than opinion.

This is a forum, so it's obviously fine if people want to give their opinion here, but it is not opinion which should be deciding whether or not a needle exchange is opened round the corner from my house.

Why should I "step away from the computer"? I'm as entitled to give my views here as anybody else.

I have been perfectly polite as far as I can see, and all I am asking for is facts.

[the-e-dealer]

Dont let facts get in the way of a good old predudiced debate on the edf

[kiera]

Out of interest, I made a point of finding out the hours of the pharmacy in Sainsburys, East Dulwich. It's open until 11pm each weekday evening, until 10pm on Saturdays and. 11-5 on Sundays - 100 hours or more. It also offers a needle exchange service.

[Sue]

kiera Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Out of interest, I made a point of finding out the

> hours of the pharmacy in Sainsburys, East Dulwich.

> It's open until 11pm each weekday evening, until

> 10pm on Saturdays and. 11-5 on Sundays - 100 hours

> or more. It also offers a needle exchange service.

xxxxx

That is interesting. So East Dulwich already has a quite central needle exchange.

Also interesting - has there been an increase in crime around Sainsbury's since it opened?

And there's a children's adventure playground right next door to Sainsbury's, too :)

[the-e-dealer]

Theres definatley been an increase in children since the playground opened

[Polmoche]

DJKillaqueen: " And if no UK studies exist exploring the impact of needle exchanges on local communities, then that suggests to me thet there isn't any problem with such facilities within the UK."

Not sure about that! Look at the Libor fixing scandal--perfect example of a problem that existed that no one cared to unearth and it looks like now the regulators knew about but didn't want to tackle. Not that I am saying there is a problem with needle exchanges--i have no idea-- only that just because no studies exist for a certain issue doesn't mean there is no problem.

It was also my understanding that in order to be one of the new breed 100 hour pharmacies that you HAVE to offer services outside of what typical pharmacies offer (ie. needle exchange). Community pharmacies are nervous at the idea of a 100 hour pharmacy being opened up in a GP's office--it's obvious that should this happen with the DMC most community pharmacies in the vicinity (lloyd;s for example) will lose business. I think from the last time the DMC applied for permission, the needle exchange "threat" was used as an argument to block the DMC's license, but it could be seen as a cynical, fear-exploiting method by community pharmacies to protect their own interests. I found it difficult to know what was better/worse! The real debate is as James Barber pointed out whether a for profit pharmacy in a setting that could easily have a monopoly should be allowed (being muddied by the whole emotional debate around a needle exchange).

[DJKillaQueen]

I totally accept those points Polmoche and you are right, that is perhaps where the real issues lie.

[healey]

I'm not sure why they are bothering with this again. It'll never, ever fly with the locals.

Needles aside, the middle of a residential street isn't a particularly good place for a long-hours pharmacy.

[the-e-dealer]

I think it would be very handy to have a Pharmacy in where its needed. Its far more convinient that going to Piccadilly.

[david_carnell]

Should I be worried?

I agree with Sue and DJKQ in the same thread.

I have nothing further to add to JennyH's comments. An excellent summary.

[Pugwash]

From the last campaign - it was discovered that many of those involved in the DMC who wanted to open the pharmacy were in fact Directors of a Pharmacutical Company whose business address was in Bedddington Lane Croydon. Searches made via Company House found that several of the Doctors in DMC had various businesses throughout London.

The search was made by one of the previous campaign workers who was a lawyer and she unearthed some very intresting information. Company House also notified the campaign group for upto a year later whenever a Director was changed in the Pharmacutical Company - but the majority of the links lead back to DMC.

It was thought at the time that if the Pharmacy was opened at DMC, their own company would be used to supply medication etc, and when you work out the costings along each stage of the supply and purchasing trail, would net in thousands of ?s per year for the directors/owners etc of DMC and Pharmacutical Company.

It would be interesting to see if the same people are named for both organisations

[DawnSE22]

Does anybody know how I can comment on this application? I asked James Barber a while back, but so far I have not got a reply.

[Earl Aelfheah]

DMC are appallingly managed. See if you can get an appointment there within 2 days as they suggest you can on their website. Unless you queue from 8 outside the surgery, you're lucky to be seen in under 2 weeks.... yet they continue to register new patients.

They really don't need to be expanding into new areas right now. Concentrate on sorting out the inefficiencies in their current operation.

Good doctors, non-existent / terrible management. Maybe the nature of GP Consortia?

[Earl Aelfheah]

boshi Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Had a letter through door today re a 100 hr

> Pharmacy and a needle exchange facility at the Dul

> med centre!! A little alarming i think as next

> door to a nursery and a residential area! Anyone

> know of this and any thoughts??

Is the 100 hrs a reference to how long you'll have to wait on the phone for an appointment?

[Sue]

rahrahrah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> DMC are appallingly managed. See if you can get an

> appointment there within 2 days as they suggest

> you can on their website. Unless you queue from 8

> outside the surgery, you're lucky to be seen in

> under 2 weeks.... yet they continue to register

> new patients.

xxxxxxx

As I have said before, this is not true in all cases.

I had a telephone consultation recently with a GP as a result of which I was offered a face to face appointment with that GP the same week.

Those people who are having to wait so long, is it because you are wanting to see a particular GP? Some of them only work part-time, plus it is the holiday season (though presumably they use locums?).

[Earl Aelfheah]

@Sue - Speaking to others, reading the comments on the NHS Choices website and on this forum, about DMC, I suspect that you have been lucky in your experience of the surgery. Certainly I have struggled to get an appointment with them on the last two occasions I have tried and an emergency appointment is almost impossible unless you are on their doorstep at 8am.