Group of teenage boys & girls near East Dulwich station & up towards Dog Kennel Hill (Lounged)

[louisiana]

mockney piers Wrote:

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> "With the exception of Madrid - I agree 100%"

> Not to take the discussion too far afield, but

> like any place depends where. Majadahonda or

> Pozuelo and you're in amongst the nicest,

> wealthiest and safest areas in Europe frankly.

> But the number of people I know who've been

> robbed, mugged etc in Madrid outweighs London by a

> country mile, well half mile maybe.

Same in Barcelona. The police once showed me the 'bag and purse mountain' in Sant Pere, the queues of robbed people outside the Raval police station stretched dozens long the whole morning every day, and it was perfectly easy to see a couple of dozen dippers, cardboard-wielders and other similar types in just an hour, by looking around as you walked. Gangs of pick-pockets regularly worked El Corte Ingles at Catalunya and other larger stores without let or hindrance. I saw them. I also chased various robbers in various parts of the city centre on behalf of those robbed, to little avail. I was mugged three times in two years (once threatened with a knife), and I was a working journalist with my eyes about me and well aware of the tricks and dangers, and fully informed by police (who I did some interviews with) of local tactics. Cars were regularly being literally 'hijacked' on motorways in NE Spain, by the so-called Peruvian gangs. (And then there was the time I unfortunately got caught between a gunman and four police officers running at me and pointing handguns, as I put out my garbage one day.)

ED is quite, quite safe by comparison. I believe the recent rise in mobile-youth-related issues may be linked to the free travel that all these kids now have. They can now roam around town on public transport for nothing. (In my youth, free travel was restricted to the school route, and anything else you paid half price.) I understand Ken L realises this is now a problem, hence the call to have a system that ID's child-route-time etc. But this of course would not solve the problem of them doing something when they got to their destination. Like ED.

[david_carnell]

I guess this should increase the climate of fear but it does seem pertinent:

Students beaten by train steamers

Edit: The robbery took place at 8.30pm on 30 November on a South Eastern service.

Why on earth has it taken this long to release details and CCTV footage?

[mockney piers]

Good points Louisiana.

I'm often asked advice about Barcelona (I'm a Madrile?o, but what the hell, I've been there) and I say it's a beautiful city and a great destination, but for gods sake don't take valuables, wear a money belt and don't get too drunk. A friend of mine once got mugged twice between bar and hotel. As he obviously had nothing after the first encounter, the second gang took his shoes!!

A quick look at my post "number of people I know who've been robbed, mugged etc in Madrid outweighs London by a country mile"

Eek, terrible mixed metaphor.

[SteveEDE]

Pulling it back to the original posting. East Dulwich station actually falls within South Camberwell. The station and Dog Kennel Hill are under the juristiction of South Camberwell Safer Neighbourhoods Team.

I will bring up the concerns raised here at the next Safer Neighbourhoods Ward Panel meeting (which I chair) and request that presence at the station is prioritised in the early evenings as kids are coming home from school.

Recent figures presented to us have not shown a high incidence of youth muggings in the area, so can I please urge people to report an such incidents to the police when they occur. The Safer Neighbourhood Team do respond to variations in the crime patterns across the ward and will liaise closely with neighbouring wards where necessary, but can only do so if there are aware that the crime is taking place.

[SeanMacGabhann]

My cynical take on that would be it was kept in people's back-pocket until things had quietened down and a new "scare" was needed

My slightly less cynical take on it is that I quite often hear people double-counting incidents - ie something happens and it gets reported the next day and people go "that's terrible" and then when the whole thing hits the front page several months later when sentencing is handed out, some people think it's yet another incident

I think louisiana has given some excellent context above. We live in one of the world's major cities, in a country where half the population believes Richard Littlejohn (ie it's gone to hell in a handcart) and yet, and yet

of the getting on 2000 unique users of this forum, very very few incidents get reported. Some burglaries and I remember the poor girls who were confronted by the school some time back. But in the bigger scheme of things nothing to make us think the world has gone mad

Put it another way - let's say burglaries (already down) were to be genuinely reduced by 50% in the next 6 months alone. That would be an unparalleled achievement. But some people would still get burgled. South London Press would still front-page the trauma. And the average person on the street wouldn't believe that burglaries had been reduced at all. It's a wonder the police force can be bothered to get out of bed some days, the amount of cynicism they face

[Brendan]

Sean just because things ?aren?t as bad as the Mail makes them out? or ?Were just as bad back in my day?. Doesn?t mean we should tolerate them. If just 1 person is robbed it is 1 too many and is a valid reason to be up in arms and demand something be done. I would rather see over reaction than complacency.

This whole argument about things being just as bad in the 70s or 80s or whatever is a self-defeating argument. Society is supposed to move on and develop for the better. 100 years ago a husband could legally rape his wife and a 7 year old boy could be sent down a mine to work. Society stopped tolerating things like that why should we tolerate any other form of crime in any way.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Brendan - I TOTALLY agree.

I'm not making a case for tolerating crime. But to move things forward and improve things we have to better understand where we are. If we can't properly judge a situation or put it into perspective we will most likely implement the wrong steps to improve things

I was going to include a caveat in my last post around the lines of "obviously one person murdered is one too many etc" but I thought that was a given.

I'm not looking to the past - I'm refuting arguments that things were better in the past. I'm more interested in looking around the globe and comparing how we stand compared to other countries. But I would also argue in any society that defines itself by competition rather than co-operation, crime - and particularly violent crime, will always have a solid footing. That's not me advocating a change in the way we live (necessarily) - or that we should just accept crime - but let's not pretend it an act from outside.

[mamafeelgood]

the safer neighbourhoods team are very helpful in south camberwell. whenever i have reported a concern (only twice) they have reacted promptly. i have said this on another thread, but they are the people to report not just an actual attack but what you see developing around you. we have to work with them as their eyes and ears on the ground. obviously don't waste their time but if you are concerned about a shift of mood from a group of kids and it feels serious let them know.

also, i recently heard on R4 that if you see a dog being allowed or encouraged to rip up street furniture or feel that the people looking after the dog are not treating it well/handling it properly you can call the rspca and they can act on your behalf. again, like with the neighbourhood team let them know but don't waste their time.

[Brendan]

You are right that it is difficult to react to any social ills without someone with a political agenda jumping up and trying to use it in some kind of unproductive blame game.

I blame the fact that society in general still buys into the outdated and limiting idea of there being a Left and a Right Wing. We feel that this somehow gives us a valid moral barometer with which to approach the world. But all it does is give people the choice to either be a bastard or an idiot, or a bit of both. It stops us from just trying to figure out what the hell is really going on.

[SeanMacGabhann]

well, left and right wing are a (very) simplified way of trying to orgnise the world

People who say life is hard are bang on the money. It is hard. Especially in it's raw forms - it's why we have build civilisations and cultures - to try and insulate ourselves from the harsh realities of life

But whether it's food, money or land - resources are bound by limits. And everyone wants as much as they can get for themselves (and theirs).

I would argue that if we stopped panicking for at least one generation and figured out a better way of using our intelligence, life might be a bit better. But as everyone points out to me -- "get real macgabhann"... so I just plough my lonely furrow hoping to find a few like minded souls..

[????]

What I find interesting is the crime rate is falling and this coinicides with the prison population rising and yet the predictables, Guardian, Indie etc act as if somehow a the fact that are prisons are filling up with criminals is wrong. We have the highest prison population in europe on the face of it (and on the face of it that's oft reported) but In actual fact if you bring in the crime rate we have one of the lowest in terms of our crime rate.....I'm all for trying to rehabilitate but I'd like the criminals off the streets away from my family and property first and the the crime stas seem to suggets that's the best way of doing it.........rather than a few celebs appealing for the stabbibngs to stop, let's try 5 years of a mandatory 5 (maybe more) year sentence for carrying a knive and see if less of our kids are stabbed to death on the streets of London which now seems to happen weekly.....

[SeanMacGabhann]

before I square up to you again quids (I know, I know...) you were missed on Friday night. More than a couple of people were asking after you

aaanyway...

So if I've read you right, you believe the correlation between the crime stats falling and the prison population rising is linked? Prison works and all that. I'm sure it does for many people

I suspect that in the longer term it's going to breed many more problems than it solves - people come out hardened, drug-dependant etc. And f@@@ me it's expensive

If the prison poulation was comprised of knife-wielding manica hell bent on my family and yours, quids, I might support your view a bit more. But it's not is it?

In fact the types of violent crime you worry about are on the increase - prison isn't an effective deterrent for these people anyway

But if the recession hits, then regardless of who is in power, what policies are in place and however much capacity we have in prisons - crime WILL increase.

And that I suspect, is the reason behind any increase-decrease in crime rates at any given time

The sort of society which has a zero-tolerance approach to crime exists - but unless we fancy living in the likes of Saudi, pre-war Iraq etc I don't see it as an option

[mockney piers]

This seemed pretty relevant to the whole debate here. Crime, fear of crime, reporting of crime etc

[KalamityKel]

Wot's the solution tho?

[MelbourneGr]

Youth Centers - apparently.

According to some documentry last night the youths interviewed seemed to want youth centers as they could spend their time in there instead of outside causing havoc. A lot of them live in high density housing which leaves them little space so they hang about outside.

If half of them continued education, 6th form college, University - they wouldn't be stuck at home all day. The youths also had a dissapointing outlook on the Government - (much like me but thats bye the bye and for different reasons) they feel the Government isn't doing enough for them. I think there is a gross misunderstanding as the Government has made it very easy for disadvantaged youths to continue education with nice cash incentives.

One of the mentors featured in the programme who works closely with troubled youths, made an alarming point - that "attacking someone, putting someone in hospital isn't major to them".

I couldn't help but think that some of the youths complaning were taking the easy route out and blaming everyone but themselves.

[KalamityKel]

MelbourneGr Wrote:

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> One of the mentors featured in the programme who

> works closely with troubled youths, made an

> alarming point - that "attacking someone, putting

> someone in hospital isn't major to them".

That would be because the consequences aren't major - ASBOS r "kool" and increase street cred. Not being found out also increases street cred. Being thought of as "hard" and "dangerous" increases street cred... wot to do? just WOT to do?

[MelbourneGr]

KalamityKel Wrote:

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> That would be because the consequences aren't

> major - ASBOS r "kool" and increase street cred.

> Not being found out also increases street cred.

> Being thought of as "hard" and "dangerous"

> increases street cred... wot to do? just WOT to

> do?

Make ASBO's "unkool" by issuing a complimentary 50 lashes with the ASBO. Going by the above, showing off trophey lash marks will improve street cred.

[KalamityKel]

Bring back the stocks! ;-)

[Brendan]

Anyone old enough to have been (or from a country where they were) caned at school? Remember you used to brag about the welts on your backside?

Only me? Oh well.

[KalamityKel]

I didnt fink u were THAT old! :p

[Brendan]

It?s amazing what a healthy lifestyle can do for you KK. ;-)

[MelbourneGr]

KalamityKel Wrote:

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> Bring back the stocks! ;-)

What's the stocks?

Caning! Now there's a thought. That would be seen "unKool" surely, especially if it was public. It was outlawed long before I started school, but my tutor (bless him) threatened to "leagalise it within the school walls if required".

[KalamityKel]

Stocks are devices used since medieval times for public humiliation, corporal punishment, and torture. .

Boards are placed around the legs or the wrists, passers by (family, friends, the old lady from down the road) can then throw things and hurl verbal abuse at the silly fool... deffo good for ya street cred ;-)

Brendan, does a healthy lifestyle include beer? Please say it is! ;-)

[Brendan]

But of course it is. Although you have to remember that maintaining a healthy balance is the important thing so I would recommend drinking some wine as well.

And perhaps a bit of whiskey, brandy, vodka and gin,

[KalamityKel]

ooo sounds like I need a Cocktail! Do I have time to get to Covent garden and back in me lunch break I wonders... ;)