Group of teenage boys & girls near East Dulwich station & up towards Dog Kennel Hill (Lounged)

[Fuschia]

Keef Wrote: I just said

> that I don't think it's a new thing. I was at

> school in the 90s, so not really that long ago,

> and things were the same!

The huge no of teenagers stabbed in the last couple of years IS a new thing. (Have a read of that Kings College report on knife crime)

[Amelie]

I grew up here, born in 1969, and I have never known anything like the situation at the moment; not even when Kingsdale and William Penn (as was) were at the height of their difficulties. There is definitely a problem with badly brought up and out of control teenagers of all colours, you have only to hear the way in which they talk to and about each other to know that. Personally I think bobbies on the beat would make all the difference, and Ian Blair drives me mad with his refusal to ackowledge that the disappearance from the streets of the Met has led directly to the increased incidence of street crime. The Met being a 'Service' has got to be one of the greatest ironies at large in London, the Met has no concept of what 'service' means and seem to have no interest in finding out.

I shall be 40 next year and these huge crowds of teenagers terrify me, particularly as I am not very tall and they all seem to be huge. Except it has to be said for the girls who are small but clearly deadly. Their attitude to other people is appalling and it is nearly always these loud aggressive teenagers who cause problems on public transport. As the disappearance of policemen has had huge ramifications, so too has the abolition of bus conductors, train guards and ticket inspectors.

I find I am becoming more and more intolerant as I age and I am starting to think that the reintroduction of some form of compulsory service requirement (not just military) would be no bad thing. I think every school, not just public schools, should have a Brownies/Cubs troop, a Guides/Scouts troop, a CCF and a Voluntary Service group with membership of at least one of them being compulsory so that none of these children - and they are children - would be left with so little to occupy their time.

[Fuschia]

http://news.aol.co.uk/school-metal-detectors-proposed/article/20080119232009990001

"Airport-style metal detectors are to be installed at hundreds of schools in a new drive to curb the rise of youth knife crime, it has emerged.

... Details of the plan emerged as it was disclosed that the number of under-18s convicted or cautioned for crimes of violence has increased by more than a third in just three years.

A newspaper reported that the total rose from 17,590 in 2003 to 24,102 in 2006 - the last year for which figures are available - an increase of 37%, according to Ministry of Justice figures."

[MelbourneGr]

The groups act like little gangs, watching each others back and all the rest of it. A lot of them come from good backgrounds, but in most state schools its the cool thing in SE London to be in some sort of gang.

Bob & ???? - Funny how you two were the only ones who seemed to pick up a colour issue when I don't think it even crossed anyone elses mind. Maybe it's something you feel very personal about and quite possibly believe. I don't know, and I don't care how you arrived at it - but it's worrying how people still glean such views from statements which suggest nothing to do with it. WTF is the "Race Card"? Stop using such terms to provoke and grow up.

Sorry to dissapoint you but these gangs are a good mix. They are just like London, well mini version as they are full of culture and feature different races - It's just a shame they're up to no good.

[Fuschia]

From the Kings Report:

"Who does ?knife crime? affect most?

Knife-related offences, as with most types of crime, appear to affect different groups of

the population to greater and lesser degrees. From the research available, it seems that

children and young people, those living in poor areas, and members of black and minority

ethnic communities are more likely to be the victims of knife use.

...People living in poor neighbourhoods also stand a far greater chance of finding

themselves at the wrong end of a knife. The unemployed have a BCS violence

victimisation rate more than double the national average, and those living in ?hard

pressed? ACORN areas are also over twice as likely to be victims of violence than

those in wealthier areas. For 10 to 25 year olds, the characteristics of those at higher

risk of being frequently victimised included being part of households that had difficulties

managing on their income and living in areas experiencing disorder problems.

A brief look at those reporting being a victim of mugging as part of the 2006?2007

BCS is illustrative of the issue. Men aged 16 to 24 are almost three times more likely to

be mugged than any other age group. Whites are less than half as likely to be mugged as

non-whites and the economically inactive are four times more likely to be mugged than

the employed.

For homicides by any method, ?both offenders and victims tend to come from

lower socio-economic groups?. Despite the rise in the homicide rate that Britain has

experienced over the last two and a half decades, the wealthiest 20 per cent of areas have

actually witnessed the homicide rate fall. Meanwhile, the homicide rate in the poorest

tenth of areas in Britain rose by 39 per cent in the eighties and nineties. Moreover, by

far the most common way in which people are murdered in the poorest fifth of areas in

Britain is through being cut with a knife or broken glass or bottle. About 60 per cent die

that way, much more than by firearms, which are the method of homicide in only 11 per

cent of cases. In the wealthiest areas, cutting with knife or glass accounts for just over

30 per cent of homicides, and firearms account for 29 per cent.

Black and minority ethnic communities

?Afro-Caribbeans and Asians are more at risk of homicide than Whites.? Considering too

that black and minority ethnic (BME) communities are disproportionately concentrated in

deprived areas, the members of those communities are more likely to experience violent crime, and muggings in particular, which involve a high proportion of knife usage.

...

More work needs to be done to determine whether particular BME groups or

communities suffer more knife-related offences or are more likely to carry knives. Limited

information is available. Following a recent Freedom of Information Act request concerning

the ethnicity of those accused of knife-enabled robbery, knife-enabled violence and knifeenabled

crime and the ethnicity of the victims of these crimes, the Home Office

responded that ?this information is not held centrally?.

The only data the Home Office was

able to provide were figures on the ethnicity of homicide victims killed by ?sharp

instruments?. Those figures for the decade to 2006 reveal that each year, on average, 12

per cent of homicide victims by sharp instrument have been black ? around five times

over-represented against population estimates. Asians occupy a similar position,

accounting for each year, on average, 7 per cent of victims.

As for knife carrying, although the 2004 YJB Youth Survey found little difference in weapon

carrying by mainstream school pupils based on ethnicity (38 per cent of white pupils, 41

per cent of black pupils and 33 per cent of Asian pupils reported having carried a weapon

of some sort) there were some differences in knife carrying habits. Of those children in

mainstream schools:

? White pupils are more likely to say that they carry a penknife than young people from

black or minority ethnic groups (26 per cent compared with 20 per cent).

? On the other hand, young people who are black are more likely to admit to carrying a

flick knife ? illegal and likely to be more dangerous ? than white or Asian young people

(15 per cent compared with 9 per cent and 8 per cent respectively).

The Safer London Youth Survey 2004 found that the rates for knife carrying in the capital

are significantly higher for white British and black Caribbean young people than for black

African and South Asian young people. Of the respondents who indicated they had carried

a knife in the past 12 months, 12 per cent were white British, 12 per cent black Caribbean, 6

per cent black African and 6 per cent South Asian.

I think what this reflects is that many young black men, in particular, are at higher risk of violent crime, due to living in deprived areas. This is born out by the high profile killings of teenagers over the last year.

White british youths are just as likely to carry knives as young black people.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

This doesn't add to the debate, but really, what kind of phrase is this: "economically inactive"? I presume they mean unemployed, if so, why not say so?

[Fuschia]

Peckhamgatecrasher Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> This doesn't add to the debate, but really, what

> kind of phrase is this: "economically inactive"? I

> presume they mean unemployed, if so, why not say

> so?

Academics, lol. Can also mean on incapacity benefit, or income support I guess.

[*Bob*]

MelbourneGr Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Bob & ???? - Funny how you two were the only ones

> who seemed to pick up a colour issue when I don't

> think it even crossed anyone elses mind.

It's not particularly funny at all, to be honest

In this instance I was merely asking someone else (????) who had inferred 'it' to put the ?? where their mouth was and say what they they actually thought instead of beating around the bush in a half-hearted finger-pointy manner.

Incidentally, if you haven't identified a 'colour issue' (as you put it) in relation to knife, gun and gang-related crime in London, then you could always ask someone from Operation Trident to fill you in. Or speak to the parents of

Kodjo Yenga (16), James Smartt-Ford (16), Javarie Crighton, (21), Michael Dosunmu (15) or Billy Cox, (15) - five black (shriek..! that words again!) boys who all met their ends in as many weeks last year.

Or put your fingers in your ears, pop a blindfold on and put it all down to coincidence.

[????]

To add my tuppence worth - i was pointing out that 'it' was subcoded in many posts....interestingly, the response from many on here seems to brand me as some kind of racist( which couldn't be further from the truth) for 'daring' to bring up the issue - I think even Bob thinks I am. My point was the race issue is just avoided with loads of liberal platitudes....."i don't even think it had crossed anyone elses mind", is, seriously the unintented funniest thing I've read on here to date Melbourne.....

[*Bob*]

???? Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> the response from many on here seems to brand me

> as some kind of racist( which couldn't be further

> from the truth) for 'daring' to bring up the issue

> - I think even Bob thinks I am.

Not at all, ????. (Although as you may know from another thread of late, I'm a terrible racist myself - so might not be the best one to decide). I'm still waiting for you to bring-up the issue though. What is the issue? Unless you're just saying that the issue is just that no-one's bringing up the issue, whatever that issue might be?

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

Where I grew up was a mainly white area, Birkenhead, and it is still one of the most violent places in the country. It is not a black v white thing, it is a deprived v affluent thing. In different areas you have different mixes of ethnicities in the most deprived areas, some asian, some black and some white, but the common thread is not their race, it is the deprivation they grow up in and the lack of positive outlets.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

You are painting a very bleak picture Chav. Having stayed in Prenton quite a bit I think there's loads of stuff to do, esp for kids/teenagers. I've never found it violent.

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

The North End and the Estates are bad. Prenton is a bit of a nicer area with more people in their own homes and working.

I went to school on the Woodchurch Estate in the late 70's - 80's and lived on the border of it. If we walked through other estates we would have to fight our way out. There were regular battles between the Woody and Ford Estate with petrol bombs and the occasional gun. I've seen guys get bricked, glassed, bottled etc. It was always violent when I was growing up and I had a lot of fights. The gand I was with used to go to Tranmere at the end of the game just to fight the opposition and the police. It all seemed normal.

I go back and nothing much has changed. There is a lick of paint but the attitude to indiscriminate violence is the same as it ever was. Some of the people I knew when I was young are still fighting despite being sick of it. They feel that they cannot avoid it and some prefer to stay at home just to keep out of trouble.

Pretty much all of them are white, but living in rundown crappy areas.

[MelbourneGr]

Fair enough. Point taken.

As Chav said, it's a deprivation thing.

[Cassius]

Well if the Home Secretary is afraid to walk alone at night it doesn't hold out much hope for the rest of us does it.

[Sue]

Fuschia Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>>

> The Safer London Youth Survey 2004 found that the

> rates for knife carrying in the capital

> are significantly higher for white British and

> black Caribbean young people than for black

> African and South Asian young people. Of the

> respondents who indicated they had carried

> a knife in the past 12 months, 12 per cent were

> white British, 12 per cent black Caribbean, 6

> per cent black African and 6 per cent South

> Asian.

>

>.

xxxxxxx

Eh? Shome mishtake shurely??

Who were the other 64% then????

??????????

:-S

[Fuschia]

http://www.communitiesthatcare.org.uk/Safer%20London%20Youth%20Survey.pdf

According to section 13 fig 3, 7847/11458 or 68% of respondents are included in that part of the survey.

I think maybe the Kings report should have said 12% of white respondents said they had carried a knife, 12% of black caribbean, 6% of black african and 6% of asian. Which is a more even spread than saying "12% of those who carried a knife were x" (depending on the proprtion of x in the cohort)

[MelbourneGr]

Meaningless statistics.

When confronted, pretend theres a 100% chance that the kid has a knife. Then run and don't look back.

[Sue]

Fuschia Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> http://www.communitiesthatcare.org.uk/Safer%20Lond

> on%20Youth%20Survey.pdf

>

> According to section 13 fig 3, 7847/11458 or 68%

> of respondents are included in that part of the

> survey.

>

> I think maybe the Kings report should have said

> 12% of white respondents said they had carried a

> knife, 12% of black caribbean, 6% of black african

> and 6% of asian. Which is a more even spread than

> saying "12% of those who carried a knife were x"

> (depending on the proprtion of x in the cohort)

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

This is the second report I have seen recently which misreports or misinterprets statistics. Interestingly, in both cases the statistics were around ethnicity.

I think it's very worrying that people who don't appear to be sufficiently numerate are writing reports of this type, since most people reading them will not notice that there is anything wrong.

:(

[SeanMacGabhann]

Sue

Do you think they are lacking numeracy or is it a case of 1984 where we are told chocolate rations have gone up/down depending on how we are doing in the war?

[Fuschia]

Sue Wrote:> I think it's very worrying that people who don't

> appear to be sufficiently numerate are writing

> reports of this type, since most people reading

> them will not notice that there is anything

> wrong.

It could just be that there were young people in other ethnic groups not counted in with the main 4 ones.

[Administrator]

Moving this to the Lounge, as it is now a discussion about youth behaviour in general

[supermum]

-- moved topic --

[Keef]

Moral Maze Radio 4, 8pm tonight (wednesday 23rd), and repeated on Saturday.

This week's subject is "Have we become scared of young people and are we right to be?", from what they just said about it, this sounds like it might be quite interesting with regards to this subject.

[citizenED]

Nice one Keef, I'll defo have a listen - whoops, it's already past 11! Looks like Saturday.

(btw, the answer is Yes, No)