matham grove orchard

[dgruit]

I read recently that Matham Grove is to get an orchard curtesy of the local council at a cost of ?1,000. See below the aims of the project. Whilst I do not mind a few free apples as I live on Matham Grove. It would have been nice for the residents to have been consulted. None of my neighbours has heard anything about this project.

Training for maintaining the trees will come voluntarily

from a resident.

FRIENDSHIPS will be made learning skills, maintenance

tasks and enjoying the lovely blossom and fruit of apple

trees.

INSPIRATION for further street activities will result of

community interaction.

EQUALITY will be fostered, as young and old, able

bodied and disabled all bring skills and knowledge.

RESPECT between neighbours will become greater.

Matham Grove is a diverse street: owner-occupiers

neighbouring housing association and council tenants;

people of varied ethnic origin live side by side. The

Street Orchard will give people a reason to get out and

talk to each other, with a shared task.

[ianr]

Details of the application, ref. D1209, are in Appendix 1 to Item 14 on the agenda of the Dulwich Community Council Meeting of 26 June. http://moderngov.southwarksites.com/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=176&MID=4290, when the recommendations were to be considered.

The wording is as you say. The applicant is shown as "East Dulwich Orchard Collective".

The full application details, considerations, and outcome, will all be public information, available on request if not published on the website. The minutes of the meeting probably won't appear until later, probably as For Approval in the agenda of the next DCC meeting. The DCC home webpage, with contact details, is at http://moderngov.southwark.gov.uk/mgCommitteeDetails.aspx?ID=176.

[snapdecision]

Why would you need to be consulted?

[the-e-dealer]

Get the right sort of Apple?

[dgruit]

I think we should be consulted. East Dulwich as an area has a history of subsidence . Planting a proposed 35 apple trees in the front gardens as has been suggested by the council needs discussion. It would be a curtesy as in other planning procedures.

[the-e-dealer]

oh come off it. 35 Trees cause East Dulwich to subside into a parallel universe.

Theres loads of old Fruit Trees still in East Dulwich- A lot of it used to be an Orchard.

[dgruit]

Matham Grove has 13 houses on each side , there are already established trees. Another 35 apple trees to be added presumably on top of these established trees. I know that there has been subsidence issues in my street with tree roots affecting a bay window and repairs being made as a result. So yes it will have an impact.

Also I am sure in these times ?1000 is to spend on some trees, when am sure more deserving causes/needs.

[ianr]

> Planting a proposed 35 apple trees in the front gardens as has been suggested by the council needs discussion.

But it's not a council project. They've (I presume) simply responded to a grant application from (I presume) a local group of people calling themselves a collective. Has the collective not communicated with local residents? You seem to have information from someone.

[ianr]

I see, btw, that there are already community orchards in some small Southwark parks: Bird in Bush Park, Nursery Row Park, Warwick Gardens. Is there any public garden space in Matham Grove?

[dgruit]

the way we found out was the se22 magazine the liberal democrat council page of that magazine. Nobody previously had communicated to the 5 neighbours I spoke too.

No there is no public space in matham grove

[ianr]

All I can see in the July issue of SE22 is "we've approved ... Matham Grove street orchard", on page 44.

You've clearly got other information sources that you've not mentioned, so I'll leave it at that. From what I've seen so far, I don't even know whether the application is a genuine project or a practical joke or scam. Why not contact the DCC support officer (link above), or one of your councillors, with your questions and concerns, and then update us?

[dgruit]

we have contacted them the liberal democrat councillors and received a response. it is a genuine project.

[Mrs TP]

That's bonkers. Nobody can just come along and plant a fruit tree in your front garden and expect you to look after it and there is no room on the pavement for 35 trees!

We have a silver birch on the pavement just outside our tiny front garden, which was identified as a significant causal factor of subsidence in our house.

[maxxi]

A fruit-bearing apple tree can be very small - can even be grown in a container - so no reason to suppose huge Victorian-style apple trees will be needed to get blossom and fruit.

The EDOC did a cider pressing at Franklins a while back and there was discussion here - http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?20,547955,548705

...you can probably contact Damon Green for some answers too if he is still involved...

[James Barber]

Matham grove has 15 properties on the northern side and 20 on the southern side but obviosuly many are subdivided into flat.

When I responded to an email asking what the scheme was about I described what had been applied for. I had assumed neighbours had been asked so I'll dig out the paperwork and check with the applicant. But no one is suggesting putting apple trees in other peoples front gardens without their agrement and my assumption is it's about climbing apple trees that remain small etc. See them against walls in gardens.

[Sue]

Mrs TP Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> We have a silver birch on the pavement just

> outside our tiny front garden, which was

> identified as a significant causal factor of

> subsidence in our house.

xxxxxxx

AAARRRGGGH NOOOOO!!!!

I have a silver birch (betula jacquemontii) outside my house, which I actually requested when a previous tree died as it has such lovely white bark.

Surely the council wouldn't knowingly plant street trees which were likely to cause subsidence?

[mynamehere]

Before we blame trees consider the nature of the soil and building code past present and what should be planned for a better future. My house and many others were built with little foundation! Poor trees to suffer the blame of poor planning and building.

If we are entering a time of draught... hard to imagine with the rain we're having... but if the long term trend is dry... then our great and dear leaders (as some in Southwark see themselves) might ask for expert council in protecting our houses built on London Clay and the trees we need for all sorts of reasons

Searching the web turns up tables like this. There are loads of ways to have your apple tree and your house foundation. What you need is good will, a vision and the plentifold expert advice that all too often goes unasked for

WHERE TREES SHOULD BE PLANTED (but remember there are new trees with new root systems constantly being developed!)

A Balanced View. Very little root action leading to subsidence damage to buildings in the UK is caused by direct physical pressure exerted by roots. A tree has to be very close to the structure indeed for such damage to occur. Planting a tree so close to a structure that trunk buttressing or increase in trunk diameter was being restricted could lead to damage. More commonly, pavements and boundary walls with little or no foundation may be lifted by large shallow roots of, for example, Populus, poplar, species. Buildings with adequate foundations, standing some distance from trees, are very rarely subject to such direct damage.

Most reported damage is secondary in nature. The problem is confined largely to soil types that shrink considerably on drying. In the UK these are mainly certain types of clay and some peaty, fen soils. Under conditions of drought when tree roots remove water from shrinkable soils, they accelerate the drying and shrinking process. This can lead to loss of support to inadequate foundations and subsequent subsidence. Continued drought, even in the absence of trees, can lead to subsidence in such circumstances.

Tree root spread data have most relevance to relatively ?safe? planting distances when relating to trees growing on shrinkable clay soils. Planting distances on other soil types that do not contract on drying have to be determined more by consideration of the respective scale of the buildings and trees, the ultimate size of the trees, and the desirable or undesirable qualities of the trees concerned. In all cases it is wise to consult a qualified expert.

KEEPING A SENSIBLE DISTANCE

min distance max root spread

from property recorded

Cypress Cupressus 3.5 metres 20.0 metres

Cypress Chamaecyparis 3.5 metres 20.0 metres

Birch Betula 4.0 metres 10.0 metres

Apple Malus 5.0 metres 10.0 metres

Pear Pyrus 5.0 metres 10.0 metres

Cherry, Plum and Peach Prunus 6.0 metres 11.0 metres

Hawthorn Crataegus 7.0 metres 11.5 metres

Rowan & Mountain Ash Sorbus 7.0 metres 11.0 metres

Plane Platanus 7.5 metres 15.0 metres

Lime Tilia 8.0 metres 20.0 metres

Black-Locust Robinia 8.5 metres 12.4 metres

Beech Fagus 9.0 metres 15.0 metres

Ash Fraxinus 10.0 metres 21.0 metres

Horse Chestnut Aesculus 10.0 metres 23.0 metres

Elm Ulmus 12.0 metres 25.0 metres

Maple & Sycamore Acer 12.0 metres 20.0 metres

Oak Quercus 18.0 metres 30.0 metres

Willow Salix 18.0 metres 40.0 metres

Poplar Populus 20.0 metres 30.0 metres

sorry about the table... it looks fine but posts like this. First number is minimum distance suggested to a building and the second number is the very very last tiny tiny hair root

[hopeful]

Dear Residents of Matham Grove

Apologies for not having spoken to all of you before the submission of this application. I did manage to speak to some of the residents who were positive about the idea, and was hoping to have done a more complete survey before the council meeting, but didn't think it would be a problem as it is completely optional to join in or not. I have to say, I've only just found out today that the application was successful. Noone from the council has contacted me and I couldn't make the meeting where they announced the decision. The idea of the project is that anyone on the street who wishes to participate can have a dwarf or semi- dwarf apple tree in a planter in the small area at the front of their house. It would of course be entirely voluntary to opt into the scheme. I am hoping that there can be a community planting day in the winter and that anyone who wishes to can learn about apple tree pruning. Hopefully in years to come, each household wil be able to harvest their own apples. Because the trees will be in front gardens, it will be possible to look after each others trees where necessary. (The main issue will be watering, as the trees will be in planters.) I am a gardener working privately and in local schools and community projects and I also co-manage a commercial orchard in Kent. For those of you who don't already know me, I'm called Natasha, and I live at 3B Matham Grove. Please feel free to ask any further questions, either in person, or on the forum.

[Coach Beth]

What a lovely idea! I would love something like this on my street!!

[Mrs TP]

Hopeful - this is fab and a cool idea. Planters are the way forward! Good luck and I hope many of your neighbours would like to and are able to support this.

[treehugger]

Good luck with this, it sounds lovely. I just hope the planters don't get stolen....

[civilservant]

Mnh, thank you for the planting distance table.

I'm intrigued by the idea of apple trees in planters along the street. A nice idea, but sustainable?

Given the need for constant vigilance to keep planters watered, and since the safe planting distance for a small apple tree is less than 5m - and also in light of this report http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/18612661 - wouldn't it make more sense for the trees to be planted along the pavement, in the ground, by the Council?

[Gimme]

I'm more worried about people nicking apples from our orchard... Gerroff moi land!