Cross passenger on the 0703hrs train from East Dulwich to London Bridge (Lounged)

[????]

My suggestion is that we all meet with pitchforks and torches at 6.50am by ED station

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

Don't forget your hoods.

[lozzyloz]

. . . and giant burning SNUB bag . . .

[Keef]

Chav, I think you give far too much consideration to class, and I don't think it's something that really exists anymore, definitely not in the way it used to.

How do you define class, is it simply if you earn more than ?25k you're middle class, and less than that you're working? Or is it to do with your outlook and attitudes?

I know all the old definitions of class / Bourgeoisie & Proletariat, but for me they are all well outdated, and don't stand up ion todays society.

[Nero]

I sometimes challenge rudeness in a non-aggressive way. Sometimes it is met with lip-curling derision, as if the rude person is actually the victim, but other times I get a 'sorry' or a 'fair enough' kind of expression. It's even worked with a gaggle of girls shouting and swearing on the back of a bus once. I wouldn't try it with a massive gang, though. Sometimes you need to admit defeat even before you try to win! Nero

[*Bob*]

Keef Wrote:

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> How do you define class, is it simply if you earn

> more than ?25k you're middle class, and less than

> that you're working?

I believe there's a simple mathematical rule you can use, Keef:

Divide the amount of money you've spent on your car by the amount of money you've spent on the maintenance of your house and then multiply by the width of your television. Anything less than 250 and you're middle class.

[macroban]

With *Bob*'s formula I'm a "divide by zero" error.

[mockney piers]

"Divide the amount of money you've spent on your car"

Does Project Gotham Racing 3 count? SO that's 30 quid divided by.....

Corrrr, I'm practically dead!

[citizenED]

I think I'd go more for the two-class system as preferred by Tony Benn, the ruling class and the rest of us. Basically forget the working class/middle class divide; it's a red herring. What matters is whether you have to work for a living or not.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

Oh dear, I bought my Skoda from Ebay for not very much. I want to be an aristo. [stamps feet]

[*Bob*]

If I'd have known the calculators would be coming out I'd have spent a little longer refining the formula.

[Brendan]

I think you will have to factor, how many different types of fish you consider having when ordering your fish & chips, in there somewhere

[barrymarshall]

citizenED Wrote:

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> I think I'd go more for the two-class system as

> preferred by Tony Benn, the ruling class and the

> rest of us. Basically forget the working

> class/middle class divide; it's a red herring.

> What matters is whether you have to work for a

> living or not.

Completely agree with you there, Citizen (or, more in the spirit of your post, "Citoyen"!).

Aux armes camarades!

[Zebedee Tring]

Agree with citizen ED. It's striking how often some posters on this MB seem to turn discussions into class issues, whether we're talking about Caffee Nero, rude people on trains, the persian cats of ED, or wha'ever.

[mightyroar]

CitizenED you are so right.

the working class/middle class divide is indeed a red herring, but the more emphasis we give to it, the more it grinds us down.

[RosieH]

Zebedee Tring Wrote:

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> Agree with citizen ED. It's striking how often

> some posters on this MB seem to turn discussions

> into class issues, whether we're talking about

> Caffee Nero, rude people on trains, the persian

> cats of ED, or wha'ever.

perhaps, perhaps: but in this instance there was a particular trigger and that was the casual use of the word "chav", which many, myself included, find offensive. the word is absolutely loaded with class connotations (google "chav" and "working class" to see the evolution of the debate - it's been raging for a good couple of years) so it's little wonder that the thread turned to the thorny subject of the British class system.

If anything, I suspect we're more acutely aware of it in East Dulwich, where we sit in increasingly affluent gift-shop splendour, cheek by jowl with the largely less well-off Peckham.

[SeanMacGabhann]

I wrote the following paragraph back in May, on this forum, on this subject. I stand by pretty much every word of it:

"As for references to "chavs" et al - there are some people in this world who do equate any working class person as such and that is poor form. There are many middle-class people on this forum but also plenty working-class and definitely lot's of brought-up-workingclass (and the odd poshie too!) - it's a big tent (for ?80) and one of the reasons I like coming here. But to paraphrase Chris Rock, if I get mugged on the way home it's not going to be by a member of the WI - it will be someone with the uniform we know and love and that's why people who wear the usual caps/trackies etc run the risk of being labelled. I don't think they are labelled just because they are working class (plenty of working class people choose to not wear those clothes. And yes I know that wearing them doesn't automatically make you anything)"

[Frisco]

"I think you will have to factor, how many different types of fish you consider having when ordering your fish & chips, in there somewhere"

Or whether they shun the fish altogether, and demand the mechanically recovered meat delicacy called 'a saveloy'.

"If anything, I suspect we're more acutely aware of it in East Dulwich, where we sit in increasingly affluent gift-shop splendour, cheek by jowl with the largely less well-off Peckham."

I'm not anymore aware of class in ED than anywhere else, and 'chav' isn't a word I often use. However, in my view, it's simplistic to compare the term with racism. As has already been said, the terms 'working class' and 'chav' are not interchangeable, but people often mistakenly and misguidedly assume they are.

Those I've referred to as chavs have tended to be the people who have no respect for anyone or anything, and who make no secret of their unrepentant pride in having that approach and mindset, and people like this can come from any socio-economic grouping. In my opinion chavs are not representative of everyone who could be described or referred to as 'working class', which most of us who work for a living happen to be.

[Frisco]

I also meant to write that I've never seen the person concerned on the 7.03 from ED to London Bridge, but repeated brutish aggression is something that should be brought to the attention of the Transport Police. to allow them the opportunity to monitor the situation, to determine if there's a risk of violence and to decide whether action is required.

[Sue]

Should go by bus. Cheaper - and more likely to find a seat where you can sit and read in peace ;-)

[Shu.Kurimu.Sensei]

Ooh, well bus is ok if you leave a bit early, but getting a bus during rush hour from ED is a bit of a nightmare really as the buses are well overcrowded, most unpleasant - you really have to rush for a seat. Its crazy how few buses are put on the roads between 7-8am...But I agree, given the options, going by bus is the nicest option for public transport. Still can't go on one without thinking it might get blown up by some dickhead though as the threat of nutters willing to kill for the glory of their stupid invisible friend here is of course very real and hasn't gone away at all.

[Sue]

Shu.Kurimu.Sensei Wrote:

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> Ooh, well bus is ok if you leave a bit early, but

> getting a bus during rush hour from ED is a bit of

> a nightmare really as the buses are well

> overcrowded, most unpleasant - you really have to

> rush for a seat. Its crazy how few buses are put

> on the roads between 7-8am...But I agree, given

> the options, going by bus is the nicest option for

> public transport. Still can't go on one without

> thinking it might get blown up by some dickhead

> though as the threat of nutters willing to kill

> for the glory of their stupid invisible friend

> here is of course very real and hasn't gone away

> at all.

xxxxx

And these "nutters" don't use trains at all, then???

And their "stupid invisible friend" is, er, who/what exactly???

Maybe you should say what you mean (6)

[EDOldie]

citizenED Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I think I'd go more for the two-class system as

> preferred by Tony Benn, the ruling class and the

> rest of us. Basically forget the working

> class/middle class divide; it's a red herring.

> What matters is whether you have to work for a

> living or not.

Class, it's wot you make it, 'Anthony "Tony" Neil Wedgwood Benn (born 3 April 1925), formerly 2nd Viscount Stansgate'

[Frisco]

"Should go by bus. Cheaper - and more likely to find a seat where you can sit and read in peace"

It may be cheaper, but buses my understanding is that bus passengers are more likely to encounter the kind of behaviour described in the initial posting than passengers on trains.

[EDOldie]

Perhaps there should be a First Class carriage on this route and then we could choose not to mix with the riff raff. I very occasionally go to London Bridge and always disinfect thoroughly after every journey.